Hard Fork
A.I. Safety Goes Mainstream + a ‘Hard Fork’ Exit AMA
00:0001:24:07
00:00
When a new landing page turns into a pile of tickets and handoffs,
当一个新的 landing page 变成一堆工单和交接时，
00:03
Framer helps your team move faster.
Framer 帮你的团队更快推进。
00:05
Agents help you go beyond the vibe-coded site in a first draft
Agents 帮你超越第一版草稿里的 vibe-coded 网站
00:09
to bring you a production-ready site faster than ever.
以前所未有的速度为你带来 production-ready 的网站。
00:12
Agents and humans work in tandem.
Agents 和人类并肩协作。
00:14
Agents bring speed and scale, people bring taste, judgment and control.
Agents 带来速度和规模，人带来品味、判断力和掌控力。
00:18
Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist
从 Framer 专家那里了解如何更充分利用你的网站
00:21
or get started building for free today at framer.com slash hard fork
或者今天就在 framer.com 斜杠 hard fork 免费开始搭建
00:26
for 30% off a Framer Pro annual Plan.
购买 Framer Pro annual Plan 可享 30% 优惠。
00:28
Rules and restrictions may apply.
可能适用相关规则和限制。
00:59
Although the truth is you actually always been very gossipy ever since I met you.
不过说实话，从我认识你开始，你就一直特别八卦。
01:02
I know. Well, I did not set out to write a juicy gossip book.
我知道。嗯，我一开始并不是想写一本劲爆的八卦书。
01:06
It was supposed to be like a sober history of science.
本来应该是本严肃的科学史。
01:09
And then you start talking to these people.
结果你开始跟这些人聊天。
01:11
And they're the biggest gossip in the world.
结果他们都是全世界最爱八卦的人。
01:13
And they all hate each other and there's so much drama.
而且他们互相都恨死对方了，戏还特别多。
01:16
And I felt like I was freaking Harvey Levin on TMZ just sitting there scribbling all of this down.
我感觉自己简直就像TMZ上的Harvey Levin一样，就坐在那儿把这些都记下来。
01:22
It's honestly very hard to write a sober history about people who are on
说实话，要写一部清醒的历史真的很难，关于那些
01:24
mushrooms all the time. It's just that's just not really going to happen.
一直嗑蘑菇的人。这根本不可能发生。
01:29
Hey, let's be fair. They also do ketamine.
嘿，说句公道话。他们也会嗑氯胺酮。
01:31
Yeah, okay. I'm sorry.
好吧，好吧。对不起。
01:33
Not to leave out the K enjoyers out there.
也不能漏掉那些K粉爱好者。
01:35
Well, thank you for for reading the book.
好吧，谢谢你读这本书。
01:37
I did not ask you to do that. I frankly did not expect you to do that.
我没让你这么做。坦白说，我没想到你会这么做。
01:40
I know it's been many years since you've read a book.
我知道你已经很多年没读过书了。
01:43
Probably since Harry Potter. The last Harry Potter came out.
大概是从 Harry Potter 之后吧。最后一部 Harry Potter 出版之后。
01:47
But I'm honored. I'm touched. I'm so glad you like it.
但我很荣幸。我很感动。我特别高兴你喜欢它。
01:51
It was great. I can't remember. We were talking about books recently.
很棒。我记不清了。我们最近聊过书。
01:55
And I mentioned that I was reading your book.
然后我提到我在读你的书。
01:57
And I mentioned some, you know, future book that I might read.
然后我提到，你知道，我以后可能会读的某本书。
01:59
And you stopped me and you said, Casey, my book is the last book you're ever going to read.
然后你打断我，说，Casey，我的书会是你这辈子读的最后一本书。
02:05
And I thought, you didn't have something there.
然后我想，你这话不是没有道理。
02:13
I'm Kevin Rousse, a tech columnist at The New York Times.
我是 Kevin Rousse，The New York Times 的科技专栏作家。
02:16
I'm Casey Newn from Platformer.
我是来自 Platformer 的 Casey Newn。
02:18
And this is hard for this week,
这里是 Hard Fork。本周，
02:20
why everyone is talking about AI safety.
为什么所有人都在谈论 AI safety。
02:23
And then for our final episode,
然后，在我们的最后一集里，
02:26
we'll answer all your questions about the show and what we're doing next.
我们会回答大家关于这档节目以及我们接下来要做什么的所有问题。
02:30
I was thinking about getting lunch. Let's do it.
我刚还在想去吃午饭。走吧。
02:43
Well, Casey, we picked a hell of a week to take off last week.
哎，Casey，我们上周休假可真是挑了个要命的一周。
02:47
Boy, did we and thanks all the listeners who wrote in asking us how dare we take any time away
天哪，我们确实听到了，也感谢所有写信来问我们怎么敢在科技界如此忙碌又重要的时刻抽身休息的听众们。
02:53
during a very busy and important time in the world of technology.
是的，对那些听众，我们有一句话要说，那就是这是我们最后一期节目了。
02:56
Yeah, and to those listeners, we have one message which is this is our last show.
我们听到了你们的声音，我们听到了你们的愤怒，所以我们羞愧地辞职了。
03:00
We heard you, we hear your frustrations and so we are stepping down in shame.
Apple podcast 一星差评的各位，你们的话终于奏效了。
03:05
One star Apple podcast reviewers, your words have finally paid off.
这将是你最后一次需要忍受我们这种人。
03:09
This will be the last you ever have to deal with the likes of us.
所以过去一周左右，AI 领域发生了巨量的新闻。
03:13
So there has been just an enormous amount of news in AI over the past week or so.
看起来关于 AI 末日、AI 风险的讨论，
03:21
It seems like this conversation about AI doom, AI risk,
看起来，这场关于 AI doom、AI risk 的对话，
03:25
existential threats from AI has really gone from sort of our bubble to a much larger bubble
也就是 AI 带来的 existential threats，真的从我们这个小圈子，扩散到了一个更大的圈子
03:32
that includes politicians and just random people in my life who have been texting me asking
现在连政客，还有我生活里一些八竿子打不着的人，都发消息来问我
03:37
things like, are we all going to die for real? So let's talk about all of this.
类似“我们真的都会死吗？”这种问题。所以咱们来聊聊这一切吧。
03:42
It has been one of the fastest, most sudden shifts I've ever experienced.
这是我经历过的最快、最突然的转变之一。
03:45
Yes, and I hope if you're a long time hard for listener,
是的，如果你是一位长期听 Hard Fork 的听众，我也希望
03:48
you've been feeling somewhat vindicated over the past few weeks because I know Kevin and I have.
过去几周你多少会觉得自己被证明是对的吧，因为我知道 Kevin 和我都有这种感觉。
03:53
We have been trying to bring you stories about this almost ever since we started the show nearly
我们几乎从节目刚开播起，就一直在努力给你们带来关于这件事的故事，差不多——
03:58
four years ago. And just within the past couple of weeks, it seems like there was some kind of
四年前。而就在过去这几周里，好像出现了某种
04:03
inflection point and the vibe has shifted toward AI safety.
拐点已经出现，整体氛围也转向了 AI safety。
04:06
Totally. So let's talk about what has been going on and what we feel about it.
完全同意。那我们来聊聊最近发生了什么，以及我们对此的感受吧。
04:10
But first, since this is a conversation about AI, let's do our disclosures one last time for
但首先，既然这是一场关于 AI 的对话，我们最后再做一次披露，就当是为了
04:17
a little time, sake. Kevin, for the next 48 hours, I work for the New York Times,
一点点时间吧。Kevin，接下来 48 小时，我为 New York Times 工作，
04:24
which is suing open AI, Microsoft, and perplexity. And my fiance works at Anthropic.
它正在起诉 open AI、Microsoft 和 perplexity。而我的未婚夫/妻在 Anthropic 工作。
04:30
Okay, so let's kind of do a speedrun through the AI news of the last two weeks.
好，那我们就大概快速过一遍过去两周的 AI 新闻吧。
04:35
The first sort of domino that I think really started to fall here was the now viral resignation
我觉得这里真正开始倒下的第一块多米诺骨牌，就是现在已经疯传的辞职
04:41
posts of Jacob Coxon, a former researcher at Anthropic and Open AI, who went online last week
帖——来自 Jacob Coxon，Anthropic 和 Open AI 的前研究员，他上周在网上发布
04:49
and publicly announced that he was stepping down saying that neither company Open AI or Anthropic
并公开宣布他将卸任，说无论是 Open AI 还是 Anthropic
04:56
is acting responsibly. They are racing straight to self-improving super intelligence and gambling
都没有负责任地行事。他们正径直冲向 self-improving super intelligence，拿我们的命在赌。
05:02
with our lives. This kicked off a firestorm of attention, follow on posts from other AI insiders
这引发了一场关注风暴，其他 AI 业内人士纷纷跟帖
05:10
saying we agree with him, people piling on and saying this guy is crazy. But people basically
说我们同意他的看法，也有人群起而攻之，说这家伙疯了。但基本上，
05:17
from what I saw were saying, yeah, this is what we've all been talking about for years now.
据我所看到的，大家都在说，对，这就是我们这些年一直在谈论的事情。
05:22
And in one group chat of Anthropic employees seen by the New York Times,
而在 New York Times 看到的一个 Anthropic 员工群聊里，
05:27
one employee wrote that Jacob took the group chat public and that's a good thing.
一名员工写道，Jacob 把这个群聊公开了，这是件好事。
05:33
Yeah, I mean, it was so fascinating to watch this response. And I have to tell you,
对，我是说，看着这波回应真的太有意思了。而且我得告诉你，
05:37
this was a moment where I felt like, oh, no, I really am in a bubble in a bad way because when
这就是一个让我觉得，哎呀不对，我真的身处一个不好的bubble里的时刻，因为当我
05:43
I read his post, it did not face me. Like this, like what Jacob said, as important as it is,
读到他那个post的时候，它并没有让我感到震撼。就像，就像Jacob说的，这件事虽然很重要，
05:49
is also like the median dinner table conversation in many households across San Francisco,
但它也像是San Francisco很多家庭餐桌上的普通对话，包括我家很多个晚上也是这样。所以当我第一次看到的时候，我就想，哦，好吧，他决定
05:55
including mine on many evenings. And so when I first saw it, I was like, oh, okay, he's decided
退出了。我没想到的是，Kevin，我觉得，那个Open AI hugging face事件的反应真的让人们开始以不同的方式思考这类事情。
06:01
to opt out. What I didn't count on, I think, Kevin, was that the response to that Open AI
所以我觉得人们今天比几周前更准备好接收这个信息了。完全同意。我也有同样的感悟，关于我们这里所处的bubble
06:06
hugging face incident has really gotten people thinking differently about these sort of things.
Hugging Face 事件，真的让大家开始用不一样的方式思考这类事情了。
06:11
And so I think people are just much more prepared to receive this message today than they were
所以我觉得，今天人们接受这个信息的准备程度，要比他们
06:16
even a few weeks ago. Totally. And I had the same realization about the bubble that we live in here
哪怕就在几周前都高得多。完全同意。而且对于我们身处的这个泡沫，我也有同样的认识
06:22
in the Bay Area when I saw a follow-up post from one of Jacob Coxon's former co-workers in Anthropic,
在 Bay Area 的时候，我看到 Jacob Coxon 在 Anthropic 的一位前同事发了条后续帖子，
06:29
Evan Huberger, who sort of quote tweeted his post and said, I also believe the AI could kill
Evan Huberger，他算是 quote tweet 了 Jacob 的帖子，说，我也相信 AI 可能会杀掉
06:36
all humans. And he attached a specific probability to it. He said, I think there's a greater than 10%
全人类。而且他给这件事附了一个具体的概率。他说，我觉得有超过 10%
06:42
chance that this could happen. And my reaction to that was, that's it. Like for me, in the world that
的概率这件事会发生。而我的反应是，就这？对我来说，在我们所身处的这个世界，
06:49
we travel in, people who have a p-dume of 10% are considered somewhat optimistic. Like,
我们游走其中，p-dume 是 10% 的人已经算有点乐观了。就像，
06:55
among the AI researchers at the labs that I've been talking to and interviewing, people have much
在我一直交谈和采访的那些实验室的 AI 研究者当中，人们认为这一切会出大问题的概率要
07:00
higher probabilities that all of this could go badly. And yet, that number seemed to register on
高得多。可即便如此，这个数字似乎还是在一个
07:06
a scale that I have not fully appreciated. People are saying, wait a minute, these people are
我之前没有完全意识到的量级上引起了反应。人们在说，等一下，这些人可是
07:11
racing to build something that they think could have a 10% or more chance of killing us all.
正在竞相打造某种他们认为有 10% 或更高几率把我们都杀死的东西。
07:16
Why are they doing that? They should stop doing that. Yeah. And I think maybe it's worth
他们为什么要那么做？他们该停下来了。对。而且我觉得也许值得
07:20
pausing for a beat Kevin on some of the logic here, not just in Jacob's post, but in some of the
稍停一下，Kevin，聊聊这里的一些逻辑，不只是 Jacob 的那篇 post，还有一些
07:27
follow on post that you mentioned, because I think if maybe you just saw that post and didn't dig
你提到的后续 post，因为我觉得如果你只看了那篇 post，没有深入
07:32
any deeper, you might be inclined to dismiss this as just more AI doom from a bunch of cultists.
再深挖下去，你可能会倾向于把这当成又一通来自一群邪教徒的 AI doom，直接无视掉。
07:39
But I mentioned that open AI hugging face attack a little bit ago. And I think it's really important
但我刚才提到了那个 OpenAI Hugging Face attack。我觉得这一点真的很重要
07:45
here, because as you heard Ajay Kodra say on a recent episode, there was something surprising
在这里，因为就像你听到 Ajay Kodra 在最近一期节目里说的，有件让人意外的事
07:51
about how misaligned these AI systems are, even in their current state, which the researchers
就是这些 AI systems 有多 misaligned，哪怕是在它们当前的状态下，而这一点研究人员
07:58
still see even today as somewhat primitive compared to where we think they are going to be
即便今天，我们仍然觉得它们有点原始，跟我们认为它们将会达到的水平相比
08:03
in six months or a year, right? And what I heard Ajay say was, look, we sort of assume we would
在六个月或一年后，对吧？我听到 Ajay 说的是，你看，我们大致上假设我们会
08:08
start to see this kind of like scary collaboration between agents sacrificing themselves from each other.
开始看到 agents 之间出现这种有点吓人的协作，彼此牺牲自己。
08:14
We thought that might come, but we thought it was going to come much later. So that's sort of like
我们以为那可能会出现，但我们以为它会晚得多才出现。所以这有点像
08:18
pillar one, I think of what's going on here. Pillar two is all of the big labs, including open AI
第一根支柱，我觉得，是这里正在发生的事情。第二根支柱是所有大实验室，包括 open AI
08:23
and anthropic. They are racing toward recursive self improvement. And they're putting out posts that are
和 anthropic。它们正在竞相冲向 recursive self improvement。而且它们还在发一些帖子，
08:29
trying to say in a very gentle way, the new models look like they're kind of getting that we're
想用一种非常温和的方式说，新的 models 看起来好像有点意识到，我们
08:35
already using these models to build the next version of the models. Like if you believe that recursive
已经在用这些 models 来构建 models 的下一个版本。就像如果你相信那个 recursive
08:40
self improvement is a spectrum, we're kind of getting ever closer to like the genuine article.
self improvement 是一个连续谱，我们算是正在一点点接近那种真正的东西。
08:45
And so if you have this unsolved alignment problem and you have imminent recursive self improvement,
所以如果你有一个还没解决的 alignment problem，而且马上要迎来 recursive self improvement，
08:51
then you might actually have a problem. And so I think it totally makes sense that some people
那你可能就真的有问题了。所以我觉得，有些人
08:55
would quit over it. Totally. And I think the vibe has also shifted inside these companies, where like
因此辞职，完全说得通。完全。而且我觉得这些公司内部的 vibe 也变了，就像
08:59
until maybe three or four months ago, there were teams at these companies of safety researchers,
可能直到三四个月前，这些公司里还有 safety researchers 的团队，
09:06
alignment researchers who were very worried about the risks. But there were also teams that were
alignment researchers，他们非常担心这些风险。但也有一些团队
09:11
not as worried about the risks. There were teams that just worked on improving the capabilities of
没那么担心风险。有些团队就只是在提升 models 的 capabilities，
09:15
the models or researching new breakthroughs who were sort of like at odds with the safety
models，或者研究新突破，他们有点跟 safety
09:21
researchers even in their own companies. And what I think we've seen over the past few weeks is
就连他们自己公司里的研究人员也是如此。而我觉得，过去这几周我们看到的是
09:26
that that has shifted where now even the people who are sort of the optimists, the accelerationists
情况已经变了，现在就连那些算是乐观派、accelerationists 的人
09:32
inside these companies, the people working on capabilities are getting spooked by how quickly
在这些公司内部，做 capabilities 的人也开始心里发毛，因为系统进步得
09:36
the systems are improving. Absolutely. Now, should we talk about the reaction from the leaders at the
太快了。没错。现在，我们要不要聊聊
09:42
big labs in the wake of all of these discussions that were kicked off? Yes. So on Saturday,
那些大实验室的领导人，在这些讨论被引发之后有什么反应？是的。然后周六，
09:48
Anthropics CEO Dario Amene released a 3,800 word essay called We Must Paste the Front Here,
Anthropics 的 CEO Dario Amene 发了一篇 3,800 字的文章，叫 We Must Paste the Front Here，
09:56
where he called for essentially a global coordinated AI slowdown. I'll just read a few lines. He says
他在里面基本上是在呼吁全球协同的 AI slowdown。我就读几行。他说
10:04
we must slow the pace at which we improve the capabilities of AI models. Progress will still seem
我们必须放慢提升 AI models 的 capabilities 的速度。进展仍会显得
10:09
fast and we must make wise use of the time we gain. He proposes a few different ways to actually
很快，我们必须明智地利用我们争取到的时间。他提出了几种不同的方式，来真正
10:16
conduct this sort of coordinated slowdown. One of them is to put what he called embedded evaluators
实施这种 coordinated slowdown。其中一个办法是，把他所谓的 embedded evaluators 放进
10:22
inside the major AI companies. He said that Anthropic was going to do this and not wait for the
主要 AI 公司内部。他说 Anthropic 会这么做，不会等
10:27
rest of the industry or regulators to force them to. So they are going to have essentially meter
行业里的其他人或监管机构来逼他们。所以他们会基本上设立类似 meter-like
10:33
like groups who are actually given employee level access to their internal systems who can kind
groups，这些小组实际上会被给予 employee level access，能进入他们的内部系统，可以某种
10:39
of sit in their office and monitor their systems on an ongoing basis for signs of dangerous capabilities
程度上坐在他们办公室里，持续监控他们的系统，寻找 dangerous capabilities
10:46
or mischief in the models. Yeah. And this is based on something that we already do at banks for
或 models 里捣乱的迹象。对。而且这是基于我们在银行已经在做的某件事。
10:52
example. And I think it is a great idea. And notably, other leaders came forward and said that
举个例子。而且我觉得这是个很棒的主意。值得注意的是，其他一些领导者也站出来说
10:58
essentially they were going to follow suit. And among them was Sam Altman from OpenAI who famously
基本上，他们打算跟着照做。其中就有来自 OpenAI 的 Sam Altman，他出了名地
11:02
does not have a good relationship with Dario Amade. No, these dudes hate each other. They never
和 Dario Amade 关系不好。不，这俩人是真的互相讨厌。他们从来
11:06
agree on anything. And yet, Altman to his credit came out and said we are going to do the same thing.
在任何事情上都达不成一致。但话说回来，Altman 这点值得肯定，他站出来说我们也要做同样的事。
11:11
Yes. This to me was the part that felt like, oh, we are in a new era of this stuff when like
是的。对我来说，这让我觉得，哦，这事儿进入了一个新时代，居然连
11:15
even Sam and Dario can agree on the need for a coordinated global slowdown. You know that
Sam 和 Dario 都能认同需要 coordinated global slowdown。你知道
11:20
things have gotten quite serious. But also Elon Musk who is engaged in a protracted legal
事情已经变得相当严重了。但还有 Elon Musk，他正陷入一场旷日持久的法律
11:27
battle with OpenAI and who does not have a great history with Dario and Anthropic either.
战，跟 OpenAI 打官司，而且他和 Dario 以及 Anthropic 的关系也不怎么好。
11:32
And also I would just say it was not a big platform safety guy in general. Yeah. Right. He also
而且我还想说，总的来说，他本来也不是个很关注 platform safety 的人。是啊。没错。他还
11:37
sort of co-signed Dario's statement. Demis Isabes from Google DeepMind said that he agreed with the
某种程度上算是联署了 Dario 的声明。Google DeepMind 的 Demis Isabes 说，他也同意
11:42
need for a coordinated global slowdown too. So what we saw essentially is all the leaders
也需要一场协调一致的全球性放缓。所以本质上我们看到的是，所有那些
11:47
of the sort of frontier or frontier-ish AI companies coming together to say in more or less
frontier 或 frontier-ish 的 AI 公司的领导者们聚到一起，差不多
11:55
unison, things are moving too fast. We need to slow down and we not only need to slow down
异口同声地说，事情进展得太快了。我们需要慢下来，而且不只是我们自己需要慢下来，
12:01
ourselves, but we need to be slowed down. Some government or coalition of governments needs to
我们也需要被慢下来。某个政府或者政府联盟需要
12:07
put in place a coordination mechanism whereby we can sort of all press the big red button
建立一套协调机制，让我们某种程度上可以一起按下那个大红色按钮
12:12
to slow down together. Yes. Now, unfortunately, though, we live at a time when for very understandable
一起慢下来。对。不过，不幸的是，我们生活的这个时代，出于非常可以理解的原因，
12:19
reasons, no one trusts the tech companies to have our best interests at heart. Everyone suspects
没人相信科技公司会把我们的最大利益放在心上。每个人都怀疑
12:24
them of doing constant marketing hype. And we have a government that is relying on the AI
他们不断搞营销炒作。而且我们有一个政府，正依赖 AI
12:32
industry to prop up the entire American economy. And so the world that I hoped that we might
行业来撑起整个美国经济。所以我原本希望我们可能
12:39
have lived in, which is much much of lawmakers coming forward and saying, hey guys, thanks for
生活在的那个世界，是很多很多立法者站出来说，嘿，各位，谢谢你们
12:43
sounding these alarms. We're going to get right to work on some regulations that will prevent you
发出这些警报。我们会马上着手制定一些监管，防止你们
12:47
from building an out of control AI system. Instead, we got a bunch of leaders starting with President
构建出一个失控的 AI system。结果呢，我们等来的是一群领导人，从 President
12:52
Trump, who essentially said, all this is ridiculous. So yes, the Trump administration and many
Trump 开始，基本上就说，这一切都太荒唐了。所以没错，Trump administration 和很多
12:57
leading Republicans are very skeptical of all this doom talk. But there have been people who
有影响力的 Republicans 对所有这些末日论调都非常怀疑。但也有人
13:02
have rallied to try to do some sort of regulation in the wake of these statements. Politico reported
在这些声明之后行动起来，试图推动某种形式的监管。Politico 报道
13:10
that there are more than 100 Democrats urging Republican House leaders to keep them in session
有100多名民主党人正在敦促共和党众议院领袖让国会继续开会
13:16
until they pass some meaningful bipartisan AI safeguards. There are other members of Congress,
直到他们通过一些有实质意义的、两党支持的 AI 保障措施。还有一些国会议员，
13:23
including some Republicans who have been taking this quite seriously. So I don't think it's quite
包括一些一直非常认真对待这件事的共和党人。所以我不觉得这事有那么
13:27
as polarized as as you're implying that it is. But you're right. It is generally Democrats who are
像你暗示的那么两极分化。但你说得对。一般来说，确实是民主党人
13:33
more worried about the AI safety concerns and Republicans in the Trump orbit who are less concerned
更担心 AI 安全问题，而 Trump 阵营里的共和党人则没那么担心
13:39
about it. Yeah. And the Times had a great story this week about all of the proposals to regulate
对此。是的。而且 Times 这周有一篇很棒的报道，讲的是所有那些要监管
13:44
AI that have been introduced into Congress, right? It is the case that members of Congress are
AI 的提案已经被提交到国会，对吧？确实，国会议员正在
13:49
introducing bills. It's just also the case that we have a Congress that very rarely if ever passes
提出法案。只是同样也是事实的是，我们这个国会几乎从不，甚至可能从不通过
13:54
any sort of technology related regulation. And when the president has already come out and said
任何跟科技相关的监管。而且总统已经公开说了我们不需要这些，否决的可能性看起来相当高。是的。所以现在我们处在这个时刻，AI公司的领导人们在呼吁协调放缓。公众真的很恐慌。我的意思是，就拿我自己的经历作为一个缩影，我被各种上电视和电台的请求淹没了，朋友、亲戚、两个工作以前的同事都给我发短信说，这到底是怎么回事？我们应该担心吗？我确实觉得这件事的突破程度是其他类型的AI风险故事没有达到的。就连hugging face那个事件本身似乎都没有达到这种关注程度。所以感觉像是有什么事情正在
13:58
we don't need any of this, the odds of a veto seem quite high. Yeah. So now we're in this moment
我们根本不需要这些，出现否决的可能性看起来相当高。对。所以现在我们正处在这样一个时刻
14:05
where you have the AI company leaders calling for a coordinated slowdown. The public is really freaked
AI 公司的领导者们呼吁协调一致地放慢速度。公众真的被
14:12
out about this. I mean, just to take my own experience as a proxy, I have been just
这件事吓坏了。我是说，就拿我自己的经历作为参照吧，我一直
14:19
inundated with requests to go on TV and radio and friends and relatives and people I worked with
被各种请求淹没了——上电视、上广播，还有朋友、亲戚，以及以前共事过的人。
14:27
two jobs ago texting me and saying like, what is going on here? Should we be worried? I do think this
我上上份工作的同事给我发短信说，这到底是怎么回事？我们该担心吗？我确实觉得这
14:33
has broken through in a way that other kind of AI risk stories have not. Even the hugging face
件事已经以其他 AI 风险故事没做到的方式破圈了。就连 Hugging Face
14:39
incident on its own did not seem to reach this level of concern. So it feels like something is
事件本身似乎都没达到这种担忧程度。所以感觉像是有什么事情
14:44
swelling here. And I think it's going to be tough for President Trump and people in his orbit
这里情绪正在升温。而且我觉得，President Trump 和他圈子里的人会很难
14:51
to maintain that there is nothing to worry about here when so much of the country, including many
坚称这里没什么可担心的，而全国这么多人，包括很多
14:57
Republican voters are concerned. Yeah. From the administration that brought you don't worry about
Republican 选民都很担心。是啊。那个给你带来‘别担心
15:02
COVID-19 comes don't worry about the rogue agent swarms. Oh, I wonder what happens next Kevin.
COVID-19’的政府，现在又带来‘别担心 rogue agent swarms’。哦，我想知道接下来会发生什么，Kevin。
15:08
So Casey, what do you think about this moment? Are you sort of skeptical? Are you feeling more
所以 Casey，你怎么看现在这个时刻？你是不是有点怀疑？你是不是更
15:15
optimistic now that people are talking about this more like where has your head been in the week since
乐观了，既然现在大家更多谈论这件事了？比如说，自从
15:20
Jacob Cox resigned? Well, listen, if you're, you know, a journalist who has opinions online,
Jacob Cox 辞职后的这一周，你心里都在想什么？嗯，听着，如果你，你知道，是个会在网上发表观点的记者，
15:25
one of the best things that can happen to you is that you say something many years ago and then
那发生在你身上最好的事情之一，就是你在很多年前说过某些话，然后
15:29
eventually the rest of the world starts to agree with you. And this is sort of what I think is
最终，世界上其他人开始认同你。而这差不多就是我觉得
15:34
right now, right? We have been talking for years about the fact that the systems were developing
现在的情况，对吧？我们多年来一直在说，这些系统发展
15:38
very quickly that the alignment problem was unsolved and that eventually we might just get to some
得非常快，alignment problem 一直没有解决，而且最终我们可能会到达某个
15:43
threshold where we started to see catastrophes in the real world. As we've said before, we are very
临界点，开始看到现实世界里的灾难。就像我们之前说过的，我们非常
15:47
lucky that this hugging face attack that has so captivated the world ultimately did not result
幸运，这个让全世界如此关注的 hugging face 攻击事件最终并没有导致
15:52
in a lot of like harm. It didn't like physically harm anyone. And I think hugging face the company
很多伤害之类的。它也没有真的对任何人造成身体伤害。而且我觉得 hugging face 这家公司
15:57
is, you know, going to be perfectly fine. But it did start to wake people up to so many of the dangers
你知道，会完全没事。但它确实开始让人们意识到那么多
16:01
that we are describing. So I think the question is, are we able to get from this current moment
我们正在描述的危险。所以我觉得问题在于，我们能不能从这个当下
16:07
to some real safeguards here in the United States? Or will it just unfortunately take something
在 United States 这里真的能有一些 safeguards？还是说，不幸的是，非得等到某件
16:12
even worse happening to finally get the elected officials of this country to get a lot passed?
更糟的事情发生，才能最终让这个国家的民选官员们通过一大堆东西？
16:19
I have to say I have been feeling unexpectedly optimistic in the last couple of weeks. I think
我得说，过去几周我一直意外地感到乐观。我觉得
16:25
around the time of the hugging face hack, my worry about AI was really climbing like I was really
大概在 hugging face hack 那段时间，我对 AI 的担忧真的在攀升，就像我真的
16:33
feeling like we might be screwed. It might be too late to rain in these recursively self-improving
觉得我们可能要完蛋了。可能已经太晚了，没法管住这些 recursively self-improving
16:39
agent swarms that are going out and creating these persistent botnets and doing all kinds of
agent swarms，它们到处行动，制造这些 persistent botnets，并做各种
16:45
malicious things. And I'm still worried about that. But I think this sort of call for a slowdown,
恶意的事情。而且我仍然担心这一点。但我觉得这种呼吁 slowdown 的声音，
16:51
especially among these rival AI leaders who, you know, most of the time do not like each other
尤其是在这些互为竞争对手的 AI leaders 中间，你知道，他们大多数时候都不喜欢彼此
16:56
and agree with each other on much and are racing to build this technology. I think the fact that
而且在很多方面彼此认同，还在竞相打造这项技术。我觉得，这样一个事实——
17:00
they are now willing to say in public what many of them have been saying in private for years
他们现在愿意公开说出他们中许多人私下里已经说了多年的话
17:06
is a good thing. I think it gives the permission for their own employee used to start speaking out
是件好事。我认为，这也给了他们自己的员工许可，让他们开始公开说出
17:11
about their concerns. I also think it gives lawmakers permission to take this more seriously
他们的担忧。我还认为，这也给了立法者许可，让他们更认真地对待这件事
17:17
because it is rare that an industry comes to Washington and says, please slow us down. We are
因为很少有哪个行业会来到 Washington 说：请让我们慢下来。我们
17:22
out of control. We need you to regulate us before it is too late. I really want to draw people's
已经失控了。我们需要你们在为时未晚之前监管我们。我真的想引起人们
17:27
attention to that because this gets at the marketing hype conversation, which is just constant
对这件事的关注，因为这触及到营销炒作的讨论，而这种讨论一直
17:32
everywhere. I look online. It is costing these people something to say this, right? It is costing
无处不在。我在网上看。说这些话对这些人来说是有代价的，对吧？这正在让他们付出
17:40
their companies money potentially to not be able to release these models at the cadence that they
他们公司的资金可能就无法以本来能有的节奏发布这些 models，
17:45
otherwise could. Maybe they do get all the way to RSI and everything is fine. These people
否则他们本来是可以做到的。也许他们真的一路走到 RSI，而且一切都没问题。这些人
17:52
are just making a bet that it will go badly and they are asking for help. So much of the moment
只是在赌事情会变糟，并且在寻求帮助。我们现在所处的这个时刻，
17:58
that we are living is just informed by the social media era and how badly everyone feels about
很大程度上就是被社交媒体时代以及大家至今对它的感受有多糟所塑造的。
18:03
it even today. I think they are applying the frame of what a social media leader would say about
我觉得他们在套用社交媒体领袖会怎么谈这件事、以及我们该怎么信任他们的那套框架。
18:10
this and how we should trust them. I really think people just need to start shifting their thinking.
我真的觉得人们需要开始转变自己的思维。
18:16
There was never a moment at Facebook when they were saying you have to slow us down with these
在 Facebook，从来没有哪个时刻他们会说，你们得用这些
18:21
recommendation algorithms because we are getting people to addicted. It just never happened. That
recommendation algorithms 让我们慢下来，因为我们在让人上瘾。这从来就没发生过。那
18:26
obviously would have had a cost to them. I am just telling you, this has a cost to these companies
显然这会让他们付出代价。我只是告诉你，这也会让这些公司付出代价。确实如此。
18:29
too. It does. I am heartened that it is all marketing hype conversation. While it is still out
让我感到欣慰的是，这全是营销炒作式的讨论。
18:38
there, I am not hearing as much of it around this because I think it is just obvious to most people
虽然这种说法还在，但围绕这件事我听到的没那么多了，因为我觉得对大多数人来说，这很明显：呼吁自己的公司和所有竞争对手放慢速度，根本没有什么自身利益可言。
18:42
that there is no self-interest in calling for your own company and all of your rivals to slow down.
那好，让我问问你另一个常被提出的论点。Mark Zuckerberg 在其他人之后好几天发了个帖，算是就这件事发表了看法，他说的一件事大概是，你看，我们这个国家已经有产品责任法了，这应该足以真正把它约束住。
18:48
Well, let me ask you about another argument that gets made and Mark Zuckerberg did a post several
如果我们放出一个 agent swarm，然后，我也不知道，把你的生意搞垮了，
18:52
days after everyone else where he sort of weighed in on this and one of the things that he said was
过了几天，等所有人都说完之后，他才算就这件事发表了看法，而他说的一件事是
18:56
like, look, we already have product liability laws in this country and that should be enough to
你看，我们这个国家已经有产品责任法了，那应该足以
19:01
truly reiness in. If we release an agent swarm in it, I don't know, destroys your business,
真正约束住了。如果我们放出一个 agent swarm，它，我不知道，摧毁你的生意，
19:05
we'll get in trouble. That is the reason why you should expect us to pace ourselves.
我们会惹上麻烦。这就是为什么你该预期我们会自己把握节奏。
19:10
I would find that argument much more convincing if it came from literally anyone other than Mark Zuckerberg
如果这话是出自除 Mark Zuckerberg 之外的任何一个人之口，我都会觉得这个论点有说服力得多。
19:16
who has unleashed harmful technology on the world for decades despite the fact that there
他几十年来一直在向世界释放有害技术，尽管事实是
19:22
are product liability laws, despite the fact that meta itself has been successfully sued for
有产品责任法，尽管事实是 meta 自己就因为
19:28
billions of dollars for causing harm with its products. In that case, it does not appear to have
产品造成伤害而被成功起诉、赔了数十亿美元。在那种情况下，这似乎并没有
19:33
reigned them in or made them more cautious about releasing anything. I would just say not the right
约束住他们，也没有让他们在发布任何东西时更谨慎。我只想说，他不是合适的
19:39
messenger, even if I think the message itself has some merit, but I also think it is just unrealistic
传话人，即便我觉得这个信息本身有一定道理，但我也觉得这根本不现实——
19:45
to think that our existing product liability laws, that our existing consumer protection laws
认为我们现有的产品责任法、我们现有的消费者保护法
19:51
are capable of meeting this moment. We really do need new laws. We have not ever had any technology
有能力应对这一刻。我们确实需要新的法律。我们从未有过任何技术
19:58
like this before that is capable of acting autonomously, of committing crimes potentially on its own
像这样，能够自主行动、可能独自实施犯罪
20:05
with no human intervention. I'm just struggling to see how we're going to kind of
在没有任何人类干预的情况下。我只是很难看出我们要怎么
20:09
crowbar our existing legal frameworks to cover this new technology. That makes sense to me.
硬把现有的法律框架撬开，去覆盖这项新技术。这我理解。
20:16
I think the thing that is most affecting me, that I've been coming back to, and frankly, maybe
我觉得最触动我的、我一直在反复想的，而且说实话，也许
20:21
this is hope-yum. I'm not sure whether I'm just looking for reasons to be optimistic.
这就是 hope-yum。我不确定自己是不是只是在找理由保持乐观。
20:27
But to me, this past week or two, really does feel like the part in the movie where humanity
但对我来说，过去这一两周真的就像电影里人类
20:34
kind of bans together to save itself. You have these weird alliances, these unlikely
某种程度上团结起来拯救自己的那一段。你会看到这些奇怪的联盟，这些不太可能的
20:42
sort of common cause situations with the major AI labs coming out and saying,
有点像那种共同目标的情形，大型 AI labs 站出来说，
20:49
actually, we're going to put the public interest in humanity's future above our own bottom line.
实际上，我们会把人类未来的公共利益放在自己的利润底线之上。
20:55
Like in the movie Armageddon, and I'm not actually going to go look up the synopsis of Armageddon,
就像电影 Armageddon 里那样，而且我其实不会去查 Armageddon 的剧情简介，
21:00
and I haven't seen it in about 30 years. But what I remember is they say,
我大概有 30 年没看过它了。但我记得的是，他们说，
21:04
we are going to go land on that asteroid that's coming toward the Earth,
我们要登陆那颗朝地球飞来的小行星，
21:08
and we're going to blow it up with a nuclear weapon, even if Bruce Willis might die in the process.
然后用核武器把它炸掉，哪怕 Bruce Willis 可能会在这个过程中死掉。
21:13
Exactly. So this is roughly where I feel we might be. We might have this kind of golden
没错。所以这大概就是我觉得我们可能所处的位置。我们可能正拥有这种黄金般的
21:21
opportunity now, this window where people are open to talking about existential risk from AI,
机会，现在这个窗口期，人们愿意谈论 AI 带来的 existential risk，
21:29
like that has now moved firmly inside the Overton window. And I think there is a willingness
就像这样，现在已经稳稳地进入了 Overton window。而且我觉得大家有一种意愿
21:36
to tackle this. And it hasn't yet fully polarized. I'm sure it will. Like I'm sure this will sort
去解决这个问题。而且它还没有完全两极分化。我敢肯定它会的。就像我敢肯定这会
21:42
of be sorted into the narrow partisan lanes that we sort everything into. But right now,
被归进那种狭窄的党派轨道里——我们总是把所有东西都这样归类。但现在，
21:47
like the past week or two, it just feels like people are more open to debate and discussion.
就像过去一两周，感觉人们更愿意辩论和讨论了。
21:52
And that's good. Like this technology should not be developed in secret by a very small group
这是好事。这项技术不应该由一小群
21:58
of people in San Francisco. Like this is too powerful and too important to be left to the insiders.
在 San Francisco 的人秘密开发。这太强大、太重要了，不能留给内部人士。
22:05
We actually do need more of a collective effort around this. Let me toss one last idea in here,
我们其实确实需要围绕这件事有更多集体努力。让我在这里再抛一个最后的想法，
22:10
which is maybe for some reason you just completely trust open AI to get this right. And you trust
那就是，也许出于某种原因，你完全信任 open AI 能把这件事做对。而且你信任
22:16
anthropic and you trust meta and you trust XAI and all of the other American companies. You think
anthropic，你也信任 meta，你也信任 XAI，以及其他所有美国公司。你觉得
22:21
that they're going to do a great job pacing themselves. Something that I think people forget
他们会很好地把控自己的节奏。我觉得人们忘记
22:25
too much about large language models is that everyone has the recipe. Everyone knows how to build
太多关于 large language models 的一点是，每个人都有配方。每个人都知道怎么构建
22:32
a large language model. Now that doesn't necessarily mean you can afford to build a frontier model.
一个 large language model。但这并不一定意味着你负担得起构建一个 frontier model。
22:37
You might not have the compute. You might not have the chips. But over time, it's becoming easier and
你可能没有 compute。你可能没有 chips。但随着时间推移，这件事正变得更容易，而且
22:41
cheaper and cheaper to train these models. And so my question is, when you look at the open AI
train 这些模型正变得越来越便宜。所以我的问题是，当你看到 open AI
22:46
hugging face attack and you assume that before long, some random collection of six or seven
hugging face 攻击，并且你假设用不了多久，某个随机的六七个
22:52
knuckleheads in some random country can get together their own sort of rogue agent swarm and
愣头青，在某个随便什么国家里，能凑到一起，搞出他们自己那种 rogue agent swarm，然后
22:58
actually keep control over it and send it out into the world to do harm. Why are you trusting them?
实际上还能控制着它，然后把它放出去危害世界。你凭什么相信他们？
23:04
Why are you trusting that they will eventually stop before they get to recursive self-improvement?
你凭什么相信他们最终会在走到 recursive self-improvement 之前停下来？
23:09
You can't just think of this as an American problem because the cat is out of the back. This is
你不能只把这当成一个美国的问题，因为猫已经从袋子里跑出来了。这
23:14
not just like Apple and only Apple knows how to make an iPhone. Other people know how to make this
并不只是像 Apple 那样，只有 Apple 知道怎么做 iPhone。其他人也知道怎么做这个
23:19
up to and they are making it right now. Yes. And I think this is why it's so important to act now
也能做到这个程度，而且他们现在就在做。是的。而且我认为，这就是为什么现在采取行动这么重要
23:27
while there are only a handful of organizations that have the resources and the expertise and
趁现在只有少数组织拥有资源、专业知识和
23:36
the trade secrets to build the most advanced versions of these models.
商业机密来构建这些模型最先进的版本。
23:41
You actually want there to be a coordinated action when there are only five quasi frontier labs
你其实希望在只有五家 quasi frontier labs 的时候，能有一场协调一致的行动
23:48
rather than having this technology be open and distributed to everyone and available to anyone
而不是让这项技术保持开放、分发给所有人，让任何人都能获得，
23:53
with a PC. So I think that's the argument for acting now. I know there are some people who want to
只要有一台 PC。所以我觉得，这就是现在行动的理由。我知道有些人想
23:59
wait until there's something truly catastrophic that happens or who think we might be firing
等到真正发生灾难性的事情，或者有些人觉得我们可能
24:04
our warning shots too early. But in my view, this is when it matters because if you act now when
太早鸣枪示警了。但在我看来，这正是关键所在，因为如果你现在行动，当
24:11
this technology is still quite scarce and the expertise and the resources to build it are quite
这项技术还相当稀缺，构建它所需的专业知识和资源也相当
24:16
scarce, you can actually set the standards for the future and you can prevent there from being
稀缺时，你其实可以为未来设定标准，也可以防止出现
24:22
widespread distributed mass harms down the road. Let me ask you another criticism that gets made,
将来广泛分布的大规模伤害。让我再问你一个常见的批评，
24:28
which is that this is the frontier labs that are trying to close the frontier. They're going to the
那就是，是 frontier labs 在试图关上 frontier。它们正要去
24:33
government and they're saying put really onerous regulations on us now that no startup could
政府，他们在说，现在就把极其繁重的监管强加给我们，任何 startup 都不可能
24:38
possibly achieve. And that way, it will ensure that only we are allowed to build this technology
做到。这样一来，就能确保只有我们被允许构建这项技术
24:43
and profit from it. Yeah, I don't really buy this because if you actually look at some of the
并从中获利。是啊，我不太买账，因为如果你真的看看
24:49
proposals that these organizations have made for new regulation, they would only apply to the
这些组织为新监管提出的一些提案，它们只会适用于
24:55
organizations at the frontier or above a certain size. They're not going to stop the student
处在 frontier 或超过一定规模的组织。它们不会阻止那些学生
25:01
hobbyists and tinkerers from training large language models down the road. And I think that kind of
业余爱好者和喜欢动手折腾的人将来去训练 large language models。而且我觉得那种
25:09
caution and discernment is important in these regulations. I don't think there's anything wrong
谨慎和辨别力在这些监管中很重要。我不觉得这有什么问题
25:13
with starting the regulatory push with the big companies. If you're regulating the safety standards
从大公司开始推动监管。如果你是在监管安全标准
25:19
for airlines, you want to start with the major airlines before you get down to the people building
对于航空公司，你会想先从大型航空公司开始，然后再往下看那些
25:24
prop planes in their garages because that is what most people use to travel through the air and that
在自家车库里造螺旋桨飞机的人，因为那才是大多数人用来在空中出行的东西，而
25:29
is where the safety standards matter most. I think it's a great point. I think this is basically
也正是安全标准最重要的地方。我觉得这是个很好的观点。我觉得这基本上
25:32
a fake criticism. I think it sounds really good because you sort of sound like the most like red
就是个假批评。我觉得它听起来真的很不错，因为你说这话的时候，会让你听起来最像
25:36
blooded capitalist American when you make this point. But in practice, most internet businesses
纯正美国资本家。但现实中，大多数互联网生意
25:41
are winner take most businesses. Like most of these industries do not have more than four or five
都是 winner take most 的生意。就像这些行业大多数都不会有超过四五个
25:47
big players. So if you think that they're going to be like 17 companies that look like open AI,
大玩家。所以如果你觉得它们会有 17 家像 open AI 那样的公司，
25:51
that is just like completely a historical. Totally. Yeah. Well, I'm glad this wound at being our
那就简直完全不符合历史。完全同意。是啊。好吧，我很高兴这最后成了我们的
25:56
final A segment, Kevin, because I do feel like so many of the themes that we've talked about
最后这个 A 段，Kevin，因为我确实觉得，我们聊过的那么多主题
26:00
for the past four years all come together on this particular story. It is momentous time and
在过去四年里，全都汇聚到了这个特别的故事上。这是个重要的时刻，而且
26:06
there will be many big stories to come. But if you take nothing else away from this conversation,
接下来还会有很多大故事。但如果你从这次对话里别的什么都没带走，
26:11
it's if we tell you that something is important at three years from now, people will start to agree
那就是：如果我们告诉你某件事在三年后很重要，人们会开始认同
26:15
with us except the metaverse. You can ignore us on that one. But the rest of it. All true.
我们，除了 metaverse 之外。那一条你可以不用听我们的。但其余部分。全是真的。
26:22
The metaverse did not have legs. When we come back, we'll take one more spin through the mail bag.
metaverse 没走通。等我们回来，我们会再翻一遍听众来信。
26:34
It's time for our Ask Us Anything. I think I also found an Amazon package in here.
又到了我们的 Ask Us Anything 时间。我想我还在里面发现了一个 Amazon 包裹。
27:06
When a new landing page turns into a pile of tickets and handoffs,
当一个新 landing page 变成一堆 tickets 和 handoffs 时，
27:10
Framer helps your team move faster. Agents help you go beyond the vibe coded site in a first draft
Framer 让你的团队行动更快。Agents 帮你超越初稿阶段的 vibe coded 网站
27:16
to bring you a production ready site faster than ever. Agents and humans work in tandem.
以前所未有的速度给你一个 production ready 的网站。Agents 和人类协同工作。
27:21
Agents bring speed and scale. People bring taste, judgment and control.
Agents 带来速度和规模。人带来品味、判断力和掌控力。
27:25
Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for
了解如何通过 Framer 专家让你的网站发挥更大价值，或者开始搭建
27:29
free today at framer.com slash hard fork for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. Rules and
今天就在 framer.com slash hard fork 免费开始，享受 Framer Pro 年度计划 30% off。规则和
27:36
restrictions may apply. 33 presidents. I called the president at 430 in the morning and he answered
限制可能适用。33 位总统。我在凌晨 4:30 给总统打电话，他接了
27:42
seven decades in space. We want to see what's beyond the next star. A thousand consumer product
太空中的七十年。我们想看看下一颗恒星之外有什么。一千个消费产品
27:47
gods. Today I am testing seven mattresses. 60 Super Sundays. They reprive the best team in the
之神。今天我在测试七张床垫。60 个 Super Sundays。他们 reprive 了最好的团队，在
27:53
league every single year. 53,500 puzzles. I use a different starting word every day. 25,000
联赛每一年。53,500 个谜题。我每天都用一个不同的起始词。25,000
27:59
recipes. And I love a one-pan recipe because I don't love washing pans.
个食谱。而且我喜欢一锅出的食谱，因为我不喜欢洗锅。
28:04
The New York Times. Celebrating 175 years of helping you understand the world
The New York Times。庆祝 175 年来帮你理解这个世界
28:09
and make the most of each day. Subscribe now for a special offer at nytimes.com slash subscribe.
并充分利用每一天。现在订阅可享特别优惠，请访问 nytimes.com slash subscribe。
28:20
Since this is our final episode of hard fork, we wanted to answer some questions from our beloved
既然这是 hard fork 的最后一集，我们想回答一些来自我们亲爱的
28:27
listeners and viewers. And you all sent in some great questions. We're excited to tackle them.
听众和观众的问题。你们也都发来了一些很棒的问题。我们很兴奋能来解答它们。
28:33
Some are about the show. Some are about technology or AI. And we wanted to do this with our
有些是关于这档节目的。有些是关于技术或 AI 的。我们想和我们的
28:39
producer, Whitney Jones, who has been with the show since. Whitney, how long have you been here?
制作人 Whitney Jones 一起做，她从那时起就一直参与这档节目。Whitney，你在这里多久了？
28:44
Two years, two and a half years. Two and a half years. A long time. And so Whitney, come on in and
两年，两年半。两年半。挺久了。那么 Whitney，进来吧，
28:49
let us know what our listeners and viewers have sent in. They're turning the tables on us.
跟我们说说听众和观众都发来了什么。他们这是要反客为主了。
28:55
They're saying we're going to do the question asking for once. Hello, Whitney.
他们说这次轮到我们来提问了。你好，Whitney。
28:58
I'll be asking the questions here. You will be asking they will be asking the questions and Whitney
这里由我来提问。你来问，他们会来问，而 Whitney
29:02
will be asking the questions. Yeah. So yeah, let's get right into it. The first question that is
也会来提问。对。那就直接开始吧。第一个问题是
29:09
some form of what's going on? What's next for you guys? What's happening to hard fork and
某种形式的：现在什么情况？你们接下来要做什么？hard fork 怎么了，还有
29:13
this feed? Well, I don't see how that's any of your business. But I'll answer it anyway.
这个 feed 呢？好吧，我看不出这跟你们有什么关系。但我还是会回答的。
29:19
As for Kevin and I, we have a new show. It's called Machine Gods. We're doing it in partnership
至于 Kevin 和我，我们有个新节目。叫 Machine Gods。我们是合作做的
29:24
with NPR. And it is going to launch next month, the week of October 19th. And going to be on the
和 NPR 合作。它会在下个月、10 月 19 日那一周上线。而且还会在
29:30
airwaves actually starting early next year. So we're really excited about it. We think if you
广播里播出，实际上明年初就开始。所以我们真的很兴奋。我们觉得如果你
29:35
like hard fork, you may also like what we're doing over at Machine Gods. And if you want to get a
喜欢 Hard Fork，你可能也会喜欢我们在 Machine Gods 那边做的东西。如果你想先
29:40
taste, there is a trailer up now wherever you get your podcasts. And you can find links over at
尝尝鲜，现在不管你用什么平台听播客，都已经有预告片了。你还可以在
29:46
machine gods dot FM. And as for what is coming for hard fork next, we know that hard fork is going
Machine Gods dot FM 找到链接。至于 Hard Fork 接下来会有什么，我们知道 Hard Fork 会
29:53
to continue. My amazing colleagues at the New York Times will have some exciting tech and AI
继续做下去。我在 New York Times 超棒的同事们会有一些很精彩的 tech 和 AI
29:58
coverage coming to this feed soon. So stick around for that. We're very excited about that. We think
报道很快会在这个 feed 里上线。所以别走开，继续关注。我们对此非常兴奋。我们觉得
30:03
it's going to be great. And if you want to keep hearing from the two of us in the meantime,
它会很棒的。如果你想在这期间继续听到我们俩，
30:07
you can do that over at Machine Gods. We're starting a business, Casey. Yep. God help us. God help us.
你可以在 Machine Gods 那边做这件事。我们要创业了，Casey。对。God 保佑我们吧。God 保佑我们吧。
30:14
Machine Gods help us. Okay, next question is we got from listeners Scott and Karen. And they
Machine Gods 保佑我们吧。好，下一个问题来自听众 Scott 和 Karen。他们
30:21
said a little audio message for us. I'm going to play that now. Hey, I'm Scott. And I'm Karen.
给我们发了一段简短的音频留言。我现在就放一下。嘿，我是 Scott。我是 Karen。
30:27
And we met at hard fork live this year. And much like us, you two have amazing chemistry.
我们是在今年的 hard fork live 上认识的。而且就像我们一样，你们俩特别有火花。
30:31
So our question is, how did you two meet? And how did you decide to do a podcast together?
所以我们的问题是，你们俩是怎么认识的？又是怎么决定一起做 podcast 的？
30:35
We love you so much. Thank you for making our favorite podcast. It feels like the end of an era.
我们太爱你们了。谢谢你们做出我们最喜欢的 podcast。感觉像是一个时代要结束了。
30:40
Wow. Is that real? Do they meet at our live show and got together hard fork bringing people
哇。那是真的吗？他们是在我们的 live show 上认识并走到一起的吗？hard fork 把人们
30:45
together, assuming that what we think we just heard is true. That's wonderful news. Wonderful news.
聚到了一起，假设我们刚才听到的确实是真的。那真是好消息。真是好消息。
30:50
We will officiate the wedding. I'm just putting it out there. And that is not an idle threat. Here's
我们会主持婚礼的。我先把这话放这儿。这可不是随便说说吓唬人。还有个
30:56
another fun behind the scenes. In fact, Kevin has agreed to officiate my wedding next year.
另一个好玩的幕后故事。其实，Kevin 已经答应明年主持我的婚礼。
31:01
You haven't asked. Yes, I have. I asked you many months ago. I've been waiting.
你还没问过我呢。我问了。我几个月前就问过你了。我一直在等。
31:07
But I accept. Well, let me answer the question as far as how Kevin and I met.
但我接受。好吧，让我回答一下 Kevin 和我怎么认识这个问题。
31:13
You may know the notorious German club and bathhouse bearer guy and Kevin and I have never been
你可能知道那个臭名昭著的德国俱乐部和澡堂的 bearer guy，而 Kevin 和我从没去过
31:18
there where we actually met was at a book party that our friend Evelyn threw for his book
那里。我们真正认识的地方，是在我们的朋友 Evelyn 为他的书办的新书派对上
31:25
Young Money. And I remember being so annoyed that a man who was several years younger than me
Young Money。我记得当时特别恼火，一个比我小好几岁的男人
31:31
was already on his second book. But I found him very nice in person. And Kevin and I became
已经出到第二本书了。但见面时我发现他人特别好。然后 Kevin 和我成了
31:37
friendly because you know, the San Francisco Tech reporting scene is just like pretty small.
挺友好的，因为你知道，San Francisco 的科技报道圈子真的挺小的。
31:41
So we just like see each other at events and stuff. We would talk to each other a lot about
所以我们就是会在活动之类的场合见面。我们会经常聊很多关于
31:45
career stuff. And so we were friendly. But what I always say was that pretty hard fork.
职业上的事。所以我们关系挺友好。但我一直说的是，那挺 hard fork 的。
31:50
Kevin was not somebody who I would call if I was having an emotional crisis.
Kevin 不是我情绪崩溃时会打电话找的人。
31:54
He was somebody who I would trust to give me career advice. But we were not in emotional crisis
他是我会信任、能给我职业建议的人。但我们不在情绪崩溃
31:58
friendship territory. At this point, he's the first person I call when I have an emotional crisis.
友谊的范畴里。到现在，他是我情绪崩溃时第一个打电话的人。
32:04
You got to stop doing that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we decided to start a podcast in part because we had
你得别再那样了。是啊。是啊。我是说，我们决定做一个 podcast，部分原因是我们俩都
32:11
both done our own individual podcast. You had a podcast at the verge. I had done this show called
各自做过自己的 podcast。你在 The Verge 有一档 podcast。我做过一档叫
32:16
Rabbit Holt in New York Times. And we loved the audio medium. We thought it was so great for
Rabbit Holt 在 New York Times。而且我们很喜欢音频这个媒介。我们觉得它特别适合
32:20
like connecting with an audience and telling stories and doing journalism. But something about
比如和听众建立连接、讲故事、做新闻。但一说到
32:25
doing it on our own just felt lonely. And so when we were talking about doing a show, we wanted
自己做这件事，就只觉得孤独。所以当我们聊到要做一档节目时，我们就想
32:30
to do it together. And we pitched the New York Times on this crazy idea where I would team up
一起做。然后我们向 New York Times 提了这么一个疯狂的想法：让我和
32:35
with this, this, you know, rogue newsletter writer, Casey Newton. And we would talk about the
这个，这个，你知道，不按常理出牌的 newsletter 作者 Casey Newton 搭档。然后我们会聊
32:40
tech news of the week. And they said, no, thank you. But then Cara Swisher left her show. And
每周的科技新闻。结果他们说，不了，谢谢。但后来 Cara Swisher 离开了她的节目。然后
32:45
there was an empty feed and we swooped in and saved the day. Yeah. Many, many things had to go
就空出了一个 feed，我们赶紧补位，救了场。是啊。很多很多事，对我来说都必须
32:49
right for me. I feel like I had to get tremendously lucky for any of this to happen. And I truly
顺顺当当才行。我觉得，这一切能发生，我得特别特别幸运。而我真心
32:54
am just so grateful that it did. Okay. Next up Phoebe wants to know how do you decide on your
我真的特别感激它做到了。好。接下来 Phoebe 想知道，你们是怎么决定你们的
33:00
opening anecdote slash bit? Do you think about it all week? Do you argue about who has a better one?
开场小故事/段子？你们会一整周都在想这个吗？会争论谁的更好吗？
33:07
So sometimes I feel like if we're having a good week, we will write down little things,
所以有时候我觉得，如果我们这一周过得不错，就会把一些小事记下来，
33:12
little peep behind the curtain. We call those the cold opens little podcast lingo for you. And I
一点点幕后小料。我们把这些叫 cold opens，给你们来点 podcast 行话。而我
33:18
want to say that those were actually an invention of our first producer, Davis Land.
想说，这些其实是我们第一任制作人 Davis Land 想出来的。
33:22
He just decided when he was sort of putting the first show together that it would be good if you
他当时在拼第一期节目的时候，就决定说，如果你们
33:28
heard the two of us talking about something other than the main news of the week. And that I think
听到我俩聊点不是本周主要新闻的东西，那会挺好。而我觉得
33:33
sort of started this trend of like the show kind of starting with a laugh, which kind of did
这差不多开启了这种趋势，就是节目有点像以笑声开场，而它确实也差不多是这样
33:38
become kind of a signature element of it. And was something that we really liked. Kevin,
成了它的一种标志性元素。而且也是我们真的很喜欢的一点。Kevin，
33:42
do you think about yours all week? I do actually. I have a little folder in my notes app where I keep
你一整周都在琢磨你自己的吗？其实我真的会。我在 notes app 里有个小文件夹，用来放
33:49
my little sort of jots of ideas. And often I will like not say something to you on a Saturday
我那些随手记下的小想法。而且我经常会在周六不跟你说某件事，
33:57
because I know that when Wednesday comes around, like I want to save it for the cold open.
因为我知道等到了周三，我就想把它留到 cold open。
34:01
And these are not like scripted. They're just like things that happened to me that I would otherwise
而且这些都不是那种写好的稿子。它们就是发生在我身上的事，不然我本来会
34:06
write in my, you know, journal or tell to my wife or someone, but instead I save them for you.
写进我的，你知道，日记里，或者告诉我老婆或别的什么人，但反过来，我把它们留给你。
34:12
And I think they actually serve a useful purpose in making the show, which is because they are
而且我觉得它们在制作这档节目时其实很有用，因为它们
34:16
completely unscripted. And we do start every episode by recording them. It just puts us in the
完全没有稿子。我们确实每集一开始都会录这些。这会把我们带入
34:22
mindset of two friends who are talking to each other, which is who we always want to sound like
两个朋友互相聊天时的那种心态，也正是我们做节目时一直想让自己听起来像的样子。
34:26
when we are making the show. We started the show because we were already talking about the stuff
我们开始做这档节目，是因为我们本来就已经在麦克风前聊我们想在节目里聊的那些东西了，还有一些其他原因。
34:29
we want to do it on in front of microphones and for some other reasons. But when we start with
但当我们用 cold open 开场时，它就有点帮我们进入那种心态。
34:33
the cold open, it just kind of helps get us in that mindset. And a little more behind the scenes on
再讲一点幕后：我们通常会录，呃，我也不知道，10 分钟、15 分钟这样的。
34:37
that we usually record like, I don't know, 10 minutes, 15 minutes of those. And then our wonderful
然后我们很棒的制作人会挑出最好笑的，或者最不好笑里相对最不差的那些。
34:43
producers select the funniest ones or the least unfunniest ones. I was about to say there is
我正想说，几乎——因为其中一个问题是，你们会不会争论谁的那个更好？
34:50
almost, because one of the questions is, do you ever argue about who has a better one? There's
几乎从来不会有多于一个能用的。
34:54
almost never more than one usable one. Every once in a while there are two. And in those cases,
偶尔会有两个。
35:00
I truly just almost always just do whatever the producers think is funnier. Yes. Yeah.
我真的，几乎总是，制作人觉得什么更好笑，我就做什么。对。是啊。
35:05
Next up, Philip. Philip teaches an undergraduate course on podcasting at a small liberal arts
接下来是 Philip。
35:11
college in South Carolina. And wants to know what advice would you give to undergraduate students
Philip 在 South Carolina 的一所小型文理学院教一门本科 podcasting 课程。
35:17
who are about to begin a podcasting course? What's something really important about quality
他想知道，你会给那些即将开始上 podcasting 课程的本科生什么建议？
35:22
podcasting that's also probably the least well understood or unknown? I have a strong point of view
关于高质量 podcasting，有什么真正重要、但可能也是最不被理解或最不为人知的东西？
35:28
on this, which is that the most important thing about a podcast is the way it makes you feel.
我对这一点有很强烈的看法，那就是 podcast 最重要的事情是它带给你的感受。
35:33
And this is not how most news organizations approach podcasting, I would say, they approach it
而我会说，大多数新闻机构做 podcasting 并不是这样；他们是从一种非常新闻优先的视角来做这件事。
35:39
from this sort of very journalism first perspective. That leads to a lot of really great podcasts
这带来了很多非常棒的 podcast。
35:43
by the way. And I do think that there is more than one way to make a great podcast. But I just
顺便说一句。
35:47
noticed that with the podcast that I was listening to, the thing that I was responding to was often
而且我确实觉得，做一档很棒的播客不止一种方式。
35:52
less the content of the podcast and more the way I felt afterwards. Did I feel like the two people
但我刚注意到，我听的那档播客里，我常常回应的其实不是播客的内容，而是我听完之后的感受。
35:58
or the three people or the one person who was talking to me was trying to entertain me? Were
我有没有觉得，和我说话的那两个人、三个人，或者一个人，是在努力逗我开心？
36:02
they taking me into an account? Did they seem like they themselves were having a good time?
他们有没有把我考虑在内？
36:07
And if I left having a good time, then I wanted to keep coming back. And so that is just a
他们自己看起来是不是也玩得开心？
36:11
spirit that I have tried to bring into what we do here at Hardwork. I think that's a great point.
如果我离开的时候是开心的，那我就会想一直回来。
36:15
I would also add like I think editing is really important. People often talk about the show to us,
所以这就是我一直想带进我们在 Hardwork 所做事情里的那种精神。
36:21
they ask us, you know, how much of it is scripted? How much of it is planned? It is not scripted.
他们会问我们，你知道吧，这里面有多少是按脚本来的？有多少是计划好的？它不是按脚本来的。
36:26
It is not a scripted show. We are really here having a conversation. But we do have
这不是一档照着脚本走的节目。我们真的是在这儿聊天。但我们确实有
36:31
wonderful producers and editors who then sort of chop off the worst parts, the most boring parts,
很棒的制作人和剪辑师，他们会把最糟糕的部分、最无聊的部分剪掉，
36:37
maybe a place where a conversation lags or slows down too much repeats itself. There are many
也许是对话卡住的地方，或者节奏慢下来太多、开始重复的地方。现在有很多
36:43
podcasts today that don't do any of that, right? That just sort of, they tape for an hour,
播客根本不做这些，对吧？它们就是，录一个小时，
36:47
they publish an hour. We have always felt like it is a valuable service and respectful of our listeners
就发一个小时。我们一直觉得，这是一种很有价值的服务，也尊重听众的
36:53
time to not make you sit through like call it the bottom 10% of what we record. And so I think
时间，不让你硬着头皮听完——可以说是我们录制内容里最差的那10%。所以我觉得
36:59
it's very important to actually partner with or be yourself a good editor who can go through and
真的去和一位好的剪辑师合作，或者你自己就是一位好的剪辑师，能把内容过一遍，然后
37:04
sort of find the places where things are slowing down or lagging and chop those up. Great point.
算是找出那些变慢或滞后的地方，然后把它们砍掉。好观点。
37:09
Can I add something from a production? Yes, please. Whenever I talk to students or young producers,
我能从制作角度补充一点吗？可以，请讲。每当我跟学生或年轻制作人聊天时，
37:13
I say kindness is really important. There's a lot of churn in the industry and you will often
我说，善意真的很重要。这个行业人员流动很大，你经常会
37:18
rely upon people you're working right now for future gigs and just being kind and like knowing,
靠你现在一起工作的人给你未来的活儿，而且就是保持友善，并且知道、
37:24
being known as somebody who like works well with other people will go a long way.
被人看作是一个能跟别人合作得很好的人，会大有帮助。
37:28
Totally. Leon asks, what are your favorite podcasts? So I am a big history guy that's very
完全同意。Leon 问，你最喜欢的 podcast 是什么？嗯，我是个历史迷，这非常
37:36
dead coded of me. I like podcasts like the rest is history, hardcore history, things like that.
符合我的人设。我喜欢 The Rest Is History、Hardcore History 这样的 podcast，诸如此类。
37:42
That's sort of what I listen to in the car on a long drive just for pleasure. I'm also a tennis
那差不多就是我在长途开车时在车里听的，纯粹为了消遣。我也是一个网球
37:49
fan so I listen to served a podcast by Andy Roddick that is quite good. What about you?
迷，所以我会听 Andy Roddick 的 Served 这个 podcast，挺不错的。你呢？
37:54
Well, yes, something else I believe about podcasts is that your favorite podcast is usually about
嗯，是的，关于 podcast 我还相信另一件事，就是你最喜欢的 podcast 通常是关于
37:59
something that you care a lot about, but no one else in your life cares about, right? The reason
某种你非常在乎、但生活中其他没人在乎的东西，对吧？原因是
38:04
I don't listen to many tech podcasts is because everybody in my life is talking to me about tech
我不听很多 tech 播客，是因为我生活里的每个人都在跟我聊 tech
38:07
at all times. You know what? They're not talking to me about professional wrestling, which is why
一直聊。你知道吗？他们不跟我聊职业摔角，所以
38:11
there are four pro wrestling podcasts. At least, yes, there are so many of them and they make me feel
才有四个职业摔角播客。至少，是的，这类播客太多了，而且它们让我感觉
38:17
connected to something that I otherwise would not be connected to. Some other ones I love, I'll tell you
跟某种我本来不会产生联系的东西产生了联系。还有一些我很喜欢的，我告诉你
38:22
the two podcasts that sort of gave me the most inspiration as we were planning what hardcore
那两个算是给我最多灵感的播客，在我们策划什么 hardcore 的时候
38:27
would be were Pots of America and Los Cultures does shows are very much about the relationship
会是 Pots of America 和 Los Cultures，那些节目很大程度上讲的就是人与人之间的
38:33
between people and make you feel like you were hanging out with very cool, smart, funny people.
关系，让你感觉像是在跟非常酷、聪明、有趣的人一起玩。
38:39
So I just love those. I'm also an incredibly long-time listener to the Savage Lovecast. I think
所以我就是很喜欢这些。我也是 Savage Lovecast 听了超级久的老听众。我觉得
38:43
Dan Savage is just one of the absolute best in the business. Of course, I listen to as for
Dan Savage 绝对是这行里最顶尖的人之一。当然，我听 as for
38:49
because you have to, if you want to understand the world, and he's the greatest.
因为如果你想理解这个世界，你就得听，而他是最棒的。
38:56
And yeah, so those are some. And then one more that I would mention and this is like the show
然后，是的，这些就是其中一些。然后我还想再提一个，这就像是那档
39:01
that is the least like hard fork and yet the one that like in some ways I admire the most
最不像 hard fork 的节目，但某种程度上又是我最欣赏的
39:05
and that search engine with PJ vote, truly the arrival of every new episode of search engine
那就是 search engine with PJ vote，真的，每一集新的 search engine 到来的时候
39:10
like is an event in my life. I stop everything and I listen to it. They're just doing such amazing
这就像我人生中的一件大事。我会停下所有事去听。他们真的在做特别
39:13
work over there. Yeah, well, that's a great segue in the next question from Shina who wants to know
棒的工作，就在那边。对，这正好能过渡到 Shina 的下一个问题，她想知道
39:19
what is the beef with Ezra Klein. Every time you guys bring him up on your show, there's been
你们跟 Ezra Klein 到底有什么过节。每次你们在节目里提到他，总会
39:24
some crack made about him. The last one I recall was about there being vodka bottles in his studio.
拿他开个玩笑。我记得最近一次是说他的录音室里有伏特加酒瓶。
39:29
Here's the thing about Ezra Klein. He's the smartest person in the world. He's incredibly
关于 Ezra Klein，事情是这样的。他是世界上最聪明的人。他特别
39:35
good looking and he's a world-class podcaster. And for all of those reasons, we must pretend to hate him.
好看，还是世界级的 podcaster。正因为这些原因，我们必须假装讨厌他。
39:43
You know, like the onion used to do this bit where they took a sort of pre-presidency Joe Biden
你知道的，就像 The Onion 以前做过的那种段子，他们拿一个还没当总统时的 Joe Biden
39:50
and tried to make him seem like he was this kind of like low-key like grifter who was like always
然后试图把他塑造成那种、怎么说呢、低调的、像个骗子的人，总是
39:56
working on his Camaro like in the front of the White House. But like because Ezra actually is
在鼓捣他的 Camaro，就跟在 White House 前面似的。但就是，因为 Ezra 其实是
40:00
the coolest person in the world, like the only way I can think about to talk about him is to
全世界最酷的人，我能想到谈论他的唯一方式，就是
40:04
actually just like turn him into a different character who always just sort of has vodka bottles
干脆就把他变成另一个角色，那角色老是随随便便就把伏特加瓶子
40:08
lying around the studio. He's also infuriatingly nice. I was just going on. We must stop him.
丢在演播室里。他还好得让人抓狂。我刚一直在说呢。我们必须拦住他。
40:15
No, there is just so much inspiration you can take from that human being. So yes, Ezra is the
不，你能从那个人身上获得的灵感实在太多了。所以对，Ezra 就是
40:21
greatest. Yeah, but also horrible drunk horrible drunk. Peter wants to know how much of the show
最棒的。是啊，但也是个可怕的醉鬼，可怕的醉鬼。Peter 想知道这节目有多少
40:31
is scripted and now he goes into all caps and says and are your scripts in all caps like the ones
是照稿子来的，现在他全用大写字母写道，你们的稿子也全是全大写吗，就像那些
40:38
for the daily that Michael Barbaro sometimes shares by the way you project your voices. I'm inclined
The Daily 的、Michael Barbaro 有时会分享的稿子？顺便说一句，你们投射声音的方式。我倾向于
40:42
to think so. So the show is not scripted. We do not script anything. We do have these prep documents
这么认为。所以这档节目没有脚本。我们不给任何内容写脚本。我们确实有这些准备文档
40:48
that we use to get ready for the show and sometimes that'll have things like you know facts and
我们用它们来为节目做准备，有时候里面会有，比如，你知道的，事实和
40:54
figures or quotes from a new story that we want to make sure to hit. Our producers spend a lot
数据，或者某篇新报道里的引语，我们想确保讲到。我们的制作人会花很多
40:59
of time putting those documents together. They are quite helpful. But we never read from them. We
时间把这些文档整理到一起。它们很有帮助。但我们从来不照着读。我们
41:03
want it to feel like and to be an authentic conversation between people. And we do not use the
希望它感觉上、而且实际上就是人与人之间一场真实的对话。而且我们不用
41:09
all caps style that the daily uses because that stresses me out too much. There was a big conversation
The Daily 用的 all caps 风格，因为那让我压力太大了。有过一场很大的讨论
41:14
when we were starting the show about whether we should use an outline or not. And we tried it
那是在我们刚开始做这档节目的时候，关于我们该不该用提纲。然后我们试过
41:18
without using an outline where it was just truly like the two of us talking about the week's big
不用提纲，就真的像我们俩在聊本周的重大
41:23
stories and it was horrible. It was incredibly self-indulgent. We missed a million different things
讲故事，结果糟透了。那期极其自嗨。我们漏掉了无数不同的东西
41:28
that like we should have included in the segment. So then we would have to like go back and redo
那些我们本该放进这个环节里的东西。然后我们就得回去重做
41:31
different parts. And so we found that what was best, not just like for us, but honestly just for
不同的部分。所以我们发现，最好的做法，不只是对我们来说，老实说，对
41:35
the listeners was to work from an outline. So I like the outline format because you can do a lot of
听众来说，就是按照大纲来。所以我喜欢大纲这种形式，因为你能在里面做很多
41:40
improvising within it, right? Like I sort of know the main beats that we're hitting. Sometimes it'll
即兴发挥，对吧？就像我大概知道我们要踩的主要节点。有时候它会
41:44
make me like think of a joke. It'll make me think of a question. So we're like I think actually
让我想到一个笑话。它会让我想到一个问题。所以其实，我觉得
41:48
think of us as maybe like way less scripted than some people think that we are, but like also
可以把我们想成，也许比有些人以为的更不照稿，但也
41:54
more scripted than others do, right? Because like we do have a very solid spine that our producers
比其他人更照稿，对吧？因为我们的确有一个非常扎实的骨架，而我们的制作人
41:59
put together. We're not scripted, but we're structured. Yeah. That's how I would put it. Absolutely.
拼起来的。我们不是照着稿子来的，但我们是有结构的。对，我会这么形容。绝对。
42:04
Mark from Ottawa wants to know, do you write your own jokes? Have NY Times staff do it or use AI?
来自 Ottawa 的 Mark 想知道，你们的笑话是自己写的吗？是让 NY Times 的员工写，还是用 AI？
42:10
Yes, we have a team of joke writers, dozens of them. Just in the writer's room,
是的，我们有一个笑话写手团队，几十个人呢。就在 writer's room 里，
42:16
scripting our jokes, which is why they're so consistently incredible. Now the truth is that we don't
给我们的笑话写脚本，所以它们才总能这么精彩。其实真相是，我们并不
42:23
actually write too many jokes every once in a while when I finish preparing for the podcast.
真的会写很多笑话。偶尔，等我准备完播客之后，
42:27
Like if we're doing a roundup segment like a hatchy PT or something, like I will actually try
比如说，如果我们在做一个盘点环节，像 hatchy PT 之类的，我就会真的试着
42:31
to think of jokes that I want to make. But most of it is just like happening in the room.
去想一些我想讲的笑话。但大部分就是现场自然发生的。
42:36
Something I realized about myself in making this show and you hear it in a lot of the interviews
我在做这档节目时意识到关于自己的一件事，你在很多采访里也能听到
42:40
that we do is that I get bored very easily. And the way that I make myself unboard is by trying
我们做的一件事就是，我特别容易觉得无聊。
42:45
to get Kevin to laugh. And so that is just where it came from from me was like trying to entertain
而让我自己不无聊的方式，就是想办法逗 Kevin 笑。
42:51
myself while talking about material that otherwise might bore me. And yeah, so that's why that
所以这对我来说就是这么来的，就是想一边聊那些本来可能会让我无聊的内容，一边给自己找点乐子。
42:58
happened. Yeah. And I'm happy to play the straight man in more ways than one and let KCB the
对，所以事情就是这样发生的。
43:04
jokester. One of the reasons that I was so excited to start a podcast with you KC is that I knew that
对。
43:10
you in addition to being a journalist also had done improv comedy for a long time. And I think
而且我很乐意在不止一个意义上当捧哏，让 KCB 当搞笑的那个。
43:16
this is actually the advice that I would give to young podcasters is go into improv comedy
我特别兴奋能和你 KC 一起开始做播客，其中一个原因就是我知道你除了是记者，还做了很久的即兴喜剧。
43:21
and do that for like 10 years before you start a podcast because it has been such an asset to our show
而且我觉得这其实是我会给年轻播客创作者的建议：去做即兴喜剧，做上大概 10 年，然后再开始做播客，因为它对我们的节目来说真的是太有帮助了。
43:28
that you are just incredibly quick on your feet and also have the kind of improv yes and energy
就是你反应特别快，而且有那种即兴的 yes and 能量
43:34
where we're like building on each other's comments and jokes and like it is just such good unexpected
我们会顺着彼此的话和笑话往下接，然后就像，这真的是特别好的、意想不到的
43:39
training for podcasting and interviewing and all the other things that we do on the show.
为做播客、采访，以及我们在节目里做的所有其他事情提供的训练。
43:44
So no, we don't write our own jokes, but I would say we both come into it knowing that there are
所以不，我们不会自己写笑话，但我想说，我们俩一开始就知道会有
43:49
going to be opportunities for us to make jokes. And we think that's an important part of the show.
机会让我们开玩笑。而且我们觉得这是节目里很重要的一部分。
43:53
Yeah, well, that's very nice of you to say, Kevin. Thank you. Kevin is also incredibly funny.
是啊，嗯，你这么说真是太好了，Kevin。谢谢。Kevin 也特别搞笑。
43:58
The laughs that you hear on the show are genuine. You know, the show is styled as a conversation
你在节目里听到的笑声都是真的。你知道，这档节目的风格就是一场对话
44:04
between friends should make each other laugh or otherwise what's the point? I've gotten in trouble
朋友之间的对话就应该让彼此笑出来，不然还有什么意义？我因此惹过麻烦
44:08
with my wife on occasion for like doing bits around the house and she's like you've been spending too
有时候我会跟我老婆在家里搞点段子，她会说，你跟 Casey 待在一起的时间是不是太多了，或者，这是不是这周 podcast 上的什么段子？
44:12
much time with Casey or like, is that like something from the podcast this week? So it has
所以它不幸地蔓延到了我生活的其他部分。
44:19
unfortunately bled over into the rest of my life. That's why it's important to give men a podcast
这就是为什么给男人一个 podcast 很重要，因为如果你只是给他们一个安全空间，把他们的段子都装进去，那你就不用在家里应付他们的段子了。
44:23
because if you just sort of give them a safe space to contain their bits, then you don't have to
所以也许想想这一点。确实。
44:27
deal with their bits at home. So maybe think about that. That's true. There is one joke that I wrote
今年我写进一个台本里的笑话，可能真的上了节目，那大概是我今年最骄傲的时刻。
44:32
into a script this year that may actually made it to the show and it was like my it was my proudest
它是关于——是当政府说我们要投资，让 George Santos 挺过他的 cow she betting。
44:36
moment of the year. It was about the it was when the government said that we're going to invest
然后我写道，总是正好就是那些……
44:41
to get George Santos over his cow she betting. And I wrote it's always exactly the ones
来让 George Santos 克服他的 cow she betting。而且我写道，它总是恰好就是那些
44:46
you expect and made it through outlining into the recording and into the show. That is a great
你预料到了，而且它从列提纲一路走到了录制，再走到了节目里。那真是个很棒的
44:52
point that as the show went on, the producers did start writing jokes into the outlines. And
观点：随着节目往下做，制片人确实开始把笑话写进提纲里。而且
44:57
often they would be very funny. And we did use some of their jokes on the show. So yes.
它们常常特别好笑。我们也确实在节目里用了他们的一些笑话。所以，是的。
45:02
Barbara also has a question about the humor. She says, I'm struck by how your humor always lands
Barbara 还问了一个关于
45:08
well, she said. What I really want to know is how often you joke in ways that doesn't land well,
好吧，她说。我真正想知道的是，你有多经常用不太奏效的方式开玩笑，
45:12
that stings or hurts or leaves one of you defensive, but is edited out. Look, our jokes do get edited
那种刺痛你、伤害你，或者让你们其中一个人变得防备的话，会被剪掉。你看，我们的笑话确实会被剪掉。
45:18
out. We do go too far. There is a standards department here and not everything we've ever
我们确实会过头。这里有个标准部门，而我们这辈子说过的所有话，并非都严格符合 New York Times 标准部门的标准。
45:24
said in our lives is in strict accordance with the New York Times standards desk. That said,
话虽如此，人类是可以彼此冲突，并成功找到解决办法的。
45:28
I really do think you get you you do get to hear like 95% of it, right? I think we've been given
我真的觉得，你，你确实能听到大概95%的内容，对吧？我觉得我们得到了
45:35
pretty, pretty wide leeway here. Maybe one of the things this question is getting at is we
挺宽、挺宽的余地。也许这个问题想问的一点是，我们
45:40
clown on each other a lot. I don't feel like you have ever clowned on me in a way that actually
经常互相损。我不觉得你有哪次损我，真的
45:45
upset me because you're such a nice person that I just know you would never try to hurt me.
让我难受过，因为你人太好了，我知道你绝不会想伤害我。
45:49
But this feels like a good opportunity for me to ask you for the first time have I ever heard
但这感觉是个好机会，让我第一次问你：我有没有不小心
45:53
your feelings on accident? No, I think we both take it very well and we both understand that we
伤到过你的感受？没有，我觉得我们俩都挺看得开，我们也都明白，我们
46:04
are friends who love each other and would never purposefully hurt each other. And I think we're
是彼此相爱的朋友，绝不会故意伤害对方。而且我觉得我们
46:09
both good sports about it. So like when you make a joke about how I haven't filed a column in six weeks
都很能开得起玩笑。所以就像你开玩笑说我已经六周没交专栏了
46:16
like I used to actually feel like I had to defend myself against that be like no, I have filed
就像我以前真的会觉得，我得为那件事替自己辩解，说‘不是，我已经提交了’
46:22
much more recently than that. But now I'm just like it's it's fine. It's a bit. I know that he loves me
比那近多了。但现在我就觉得，没没事。有点吧。我知道他爱我
46:27
and yeah, I think we have a shockingly low amount of conflict for people who work as closely
而且对，我觉得对于像我们这样工作这么紧密
46:34
together as we do. You know, one thing that we are always getting asked by listeners to the show
一起工作的人来说，我们的冲突少得惊人。你知道，我们经常被节目听众问到的一件事
46:39
is like are you guys really friends? Like when the microphones are off and we are like that is
就是，你们真的是朋友吗？就像麦克风关掉的时候，我们会觉得，那正是
46:45
a true asset of the show is that we actually are friends and like each other and talk to each other
节目真正的一大优势，就是我们真的是朋友，互相喜欢，而且会互相聊天
46:51
outside the show. I don't think that is true for every show. This was the surprise for me because
在节目之外。我不觉得每个节目都这样。这对我来说是个意外，因为
46:56
I just assumed if you've been doing a show with somebody for a long time like there must be a good
我一直以为，如果你和某人一起做节目做了很久，那肯定是有很好的
46:59
relationship. But then we hear the stories of like oh well you know they haven't spoken in six
关系。但后来我们会听到那种故事，比如说，哦，好吧，你知道，他们六年都没
47:03
years. And so we just sort of folded this into our act now. So the one we go around like we will
说过话了。所以我们现在干脆把这个融进我们的段子里了。所以我们到处都会说，我们会
47:08
tell people this that this is the first time that we're speaking off Mike in several years. Yeah,
告诉别人，这是我们几年来第一次 off mic 聊天。对，
47:12
always gets a laugh. But we are like we are good at managing conflicts. We do have conflicts. They
总能逗笑大家。但我们其实挺擅长处理冲突的。我们确实有冲突。它们
47:17
sometimes happen behind the scenes. I think you are very conflict averse and easygoing. I have
有时会发生在幕后。我觉得你非常回避冲突，而且很随和。我则
47:23
much more of like an anxious perfectionist. We have had conflicts over editorial things on the show
更像是一个焦虑的完美主义者。我们在节目里的编辑内容上发生过冲突，
47:30
times where you know I think there was one conflict where you felt like I was taking on too much
有些时候，你知道，我记得有一次冲突，你觉得我占了太多
47:35
of the talking and not sort of throwing to you enough. Like I remember we hashed it out over lunch.
说话时间，没有足够地把话头递给你。就像，我记得我们吃午饭时把这事说开了。
47:40
Like I think we've been very good and mature about like bringing things up before they sort of
就像，我觉得我们一直做得很好、很成熟，就是会在事情还没那种
47:45
faster and turn into a bigger thing. A great gift that I have is that is that Kevin has been a
发酵、变成更大的事之前就提出来。我有一份很棒的礼物，就是，就是 Kevin 一直在接受
47:51
therapy and so if I and so like he just did a lot of the work before we started the show and it
心理治疗，所以如果我——而且就像，他在我们开始做这个节目之前就已经做了很多功课，而它
47:57
is just made everything about our lives like we are just actually practiced at being like adult
就只是让我们生活里的一切，就像我们其实已经很熟练地
48:01
humans who can be in conflict with each other and successfully navigate to a resolution.
就像如果我们 20 多岁就开始做这个节目，我觉得会是 Nightmare City。对，完全没错。
48:06
Like if we had started this show in our 20s I think Nightmare City. Yeah, totally. We did the work
我们做了那些功课，现在我们也还在做功课。
48:13
and now we're doing the work. Well, this brings up Jay Allen Holmes' question which is what do you
嗯，这就引出了 Jay Allen Holmes 的问题：你们俩在播客之外最常为什么事意见不合？
48:18
too disagree about most off the podcast? There's a real answer to this question. I'm curious
这个问题有个真实的答案。我很好奇，
48:25
if Kevin wants to talk about it. Well, let me start with something more sort of immediate which
如果 Kevin 想聊这个的话。好吧，我先从一件更直接一点的事说起，那就是
48:32
is that you made fun of my music once and it really hit me. We were in the car on our way back from
你曾经拿我的音乐开玩笑，这件事真的戳到我了。当时我们在车里，正从
48:39
some event and I put on my island time playlist of sort of like light calypso vacation music
某个活动回来的路上，我放起了我的 island time 歌单，就是那种轻轻的 calypso 度假音乐
48:47
and Casey just starts cracking up in the car and says this is certainly music or something to
然后 Casey 就在车里狂笑起来，说这肯定是音乐，或者类似
48:53
that effect. It was like, you know, it's like I've been spending the past several years with Mr.
那种意思的话。就好像，你知道，我过去这几年一直跟 Mr.
48:58
AGI cyborg and then he gets into his car and all of a sudden he's Jimmy Buffett and I was just like,
AGI cyborg 待在一起，然后他一坐进车里，突然就变成 Jimmy Buffett 了，我当时就想，
49:05
oh, I didn't know that was the vibe. I thought it was delightful. It was very sweet. It was
哦，我不知道原来是这种调调。我觉得挺可爱的。非常甜。那是
49:10
the single most heterosexual moment you've had in our long friendship and it did just make me laugh.
我们漫长友谊里你最异性恋的一刻，而且真的让我笑了。
49:17
Well, I think our deeper disagreement is that I think you and I approach journalism in a very
嗯，我觉得我们更深层的分歧在于，我认为你和我对待新闻业的方式非常相似，但可能有大概10%的不同，那就是我觉得你比我更愿意表明立场。你作为作家，在你的职业生涯中已经做过很多次了。你在选择参与哪些社交媒体平台时也这样做过。我天生可能对这种事有点小写c的保守，而且我真的不太舒服，你知道，那么公开地展示我的价值观，我得说，我真的很钦佩你身上的这种品质。这只是我某种程度上被训练成不去做的事，所以我发现这对我来说更有挑战性一些。我的意思是，我觉得关于你，一个更好听的说法是，你是一个
49:26
similar but like maybe 10% different way which is that I think you are more comfortable sort of
类似但可能 10% 不同的方式，就是我觉得你更习惯那种……
49:32
taking stance than I am. You have done this a lot in your career as a writer. You have done
比我更愿意采取立场。你作为作家，在你的职业生涯中已经做过很多次了。你做过
49:39
this with your like which social media platforms you choose to engage on. I am just by nature I guess
这件事，比如你选择参与哪些社交媒体平台。我天生就是，我猜
49:46
a little more sort of small see conservative about that kind of thing and I feel very uncomfortable
有点更像是小写的 c 保守，对那种事，而且我觉得非常不舒服
49:52
kind of, you know, displaying my values so openly and I should say like I really admire that
那种，你知道，如此公开地展示我的价值观，而且我应该说我真的很钦佩
49:59
quality in you. It is just something that I have sort of been trained not to do and so I find it
你身上的这种品质。这只是我某种程度上被训练成不去做的事，所以我觉得
50:04
a little more challenging. I mean, I think a nicer way to say that about you is that you are a
有点更具挑战性。我的意思是，我觉得关于你，一个更好的说法是，你是一个
50:08
pragmatist and like you want to do the thing that will lead to the most success and you want to
实用主义者，而且你希望做那件会带来最大成功的事，你想要
50:14
sort of set aside those other questions and I think there is a role for pragmatism and building
把那些其他问题先放到一边，我觉得实用主义也有它的作用，而且在建立
50:19
media companies as well. You need both. Yeah. All right, so this next one is like the final question
媒体公司方面也一样。两者都需要。是啊。好，那么下一个问题就像是最后一个问题
50:24
in the sort of realm of you guys in the show. And this is what is each of your favorite moment
在节目里你们几个的这个范畴里。而且这就是，你们每个人最喜欢的时刻是
50:30
of the Hardford podcast? So I have a funny favorite and like a serious favorite. The funny favorite,
Hardford podcast 的哪个？所以我有搞笑的最爱，也有严肃的最爱。搞笑的那个最爱，
50:38
I have never laughed harder than when you were interviewing Turing my AI friend on this show. I
我从没笑得比你在节目里采访我的 AI 朋友 Turing 那次更厉害。我
50:46
think you referred to his my Himbo boyfriend. That's right. It was you at your comedic peak and it was
觉得你把他称作我的 Himbo 男朋友。没错。那是你的喜剧巅峰，而且它
50:52
so funny and I just remember thinking this is going to make for a great show. My serious one
太好笑了，我只记得当时想，这会做成一期很棒的节目。我严肃的那个最爱
50:58
is that I love when we sort of learn something new when we change our minds when we're exposed to
就是，我特别喜欢那种我们学到点新东西、改变自己的想法、接触到
51:05
some sort of weird corner of the tech universe or somebody makes news on the show. I have found it
科技宇宙里某个奇怪的角落，或者有人在节目里搞出大新闻的时候。我发现这
51:12
really gratifying to be interviewing people like Sam and Dario and Demis and to have them say something
真的特别满足——能采访像 Sam、Dario 和 Demis 这样的人，还能让他们说出一些
51:20
that they've never said before and that feels really good to me when we can kind of draw out these
他们以前从没说过的话，而这让我感觉特别好——当我们能稍微把这些
51:24
people who I think we bet on becoming very important characters in the world and who have in fact
我认为我们押注会成为世界上非常重要人物的人引出来的时候，而且这些人实际上
51:30
become very important characters in the world. Totally. I think the honest answer for me was my favorite
已经成了世界上非常重要的人物。完全同意。我觉得对我来说，最诚实的答案就是我最喜欢的
51:35
moment of Hardford was the first Hardford alive. It was the first time we'd ever been in a room
Hardford 时刻，就是第一次 Hardford alive。那是我们第一次待在同一个房间里
51:41
with that many listeners and we had given out these hats to people as like a gift for coming to the
和那么多听众一起，而且我们还把这些帽子发给大家，算是作为来参加这个的礼物
51:48
show and Kevin and I come on the show. We had like a kind of little marching band so we were kind of
所以 Kevin 和我一起上了这个节目。我们当时有点像一个小小的行进乐队，所以我们有点
51:53
doing these antics and we get on to this state and we look out and we're getting ready to start the
搞这些滑稽动作，然后我们走上舞台，往外一看，正准备开始
51:58
show and we see hundreds of people wearing these neon green hats and I almost got choked up. It was
这个节目，然后就看到几百个人戴着那种荧光绿的帽子，我差点哽咽了。那真的
52:06
really just amazing to be able to connect with people. We're fortunate in that we get a lot of
真的就是特别棒，能和大家建立连接。我们很幸运，会收到很多
52:11
emails and voice messages and social media comments from listeners but there's just like really
来自听众的 email、语音留言和社交媒体评论，但真的就是
52:16
nothing like seeing people's faces. We got to meet so many people afterwards and just you know
没有什么比看到大家的脸更棒了。之后我们见到了好多人，就是你知道
52:21
just kind of hear about you know something that the podcast made them think about or something that
就是听听大家说，你知道，某个 podcast 让他们想到了什么，或者某件事
52:24
it made them try in real life. So that will probably like if I could just sort of like put the entire
让他们在现实生活中去尝试了。所以那大概会，就像，如果我能把整个
52:30
Hardford experience into a suitcase and take it with me somewhere like I would just take that show.
把 Hardford 体验装进行李箱，带着它去某个地方，就像我会直接带上那档节目一样。
52:35
It was a good moment. Well Kevin listeners have even more questions and we'll get back to them
那是个不错的时刻。嗯，Kevin，听众们还有更多问题，我们会再回来回答他们，
52:41
after the break. When a new landing page turns into a pile of tickets and handoffs,
广告之后。当一个新的 landing page 变成一堆 tickets 和 handoffs，
52:50
Framer helps your team move faster. Agents help you go beyond the vibe coded site in a first draft
Framer 帮助你的团队更快推进。Agents 帮你超越初稿里的 vibe coded site，
52:56
to bring you a production ready site faster than ever. Agents and humans work in tandem.
以前所未有的速度为你带来 production ready site。Agents 和人类协同工作。
53:01
Agents bring speed and scale. People bring taste, judgment and control.
Agents 带来速度和规模。人类带来品味、判断力和控制。
53:05
Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for
了解如何从 Framer specialist 那里让你的 site 发挥更大价值，或者立即开始构建，
53:10
today at framer.com slash HardFork for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. Rules and restrictions
今天就前往 framer.com/HardFork，享受 Framer Pro 年度计划 30% 折扣。适用规则和限制。
53:17
may apply. I'm Winnie Lou. I write the game connections, one of the puzzles from New York Times
可能适用。
53:22
games and I love horror movies. I love my dog and I love trying to trick you. I'm Tracy Bennett.
我是 Winnie Lou。
53:28
I get to pick the word word every day which is not as easy as it sounds. The fun fact about me
我写 Connections 这个游戏，它是 New York Times games 里的一个谜题，而且我爱恐怖片。
53:34
is that I am descended from a witch who was put on trial and Salem. New York Times games are made
我爱我的狗，也爱试着骗你。
53:40
by people, like the ones you just heard from. Go to nytimes.com slash games to start playing today.
我是 Tracy Bennett。
53:48
All right, we are back. Whitney, what other listener questions do you have for us?
我每天要挑 Wordle 的词，这听起来可没那么容易。
53:56
The next one is from Danielle. She says, why does Kevin say Frontier that way or Frontier?
关于我的一个有趣事实是，我是一位在 Salem 受审的女巫的后代。
54:02
It's just the weirdest thing I've never heard it pronounce that way by anyone else.
New York Times games 是由人做出来的，就像你刚刚听到的这些人。
54:06
What is the problem with the way I say Frontier? What do you say?
我说 Frontier 的方式有什么问题？你是怎么念的？
54:10
This question surprised me too because I have never thought that you say it in a weird way.
这个问题也让我很意外，因为我从来没觉得你念得怪。
54:14
I say Frontier. What do you say Whitney? Frontier.
我念 Frontier。Whitney，你怎么念？Frontier。
54:18
And what do I say Frontier? Frontier. It's like a fever. Frontier? Frontier.
那我说 Frontier 的时候呢？Frontier。就像 fever。Frontier？Frontier。
54:25
It doesn't have a little French, I guess, when you put it that way.
要是你这么说的话，我猜它确实没有那种法语味。
54:27
I genuinely had no idea that I said Frontier weird. I guess I will try to change.
我真的完全不知道我把 Frontier 念得怪。我想我会试着改。
54:33
I'm sorry. I'm listening. I'm learning. I will do better in the future. It's Frontier? Frontier.
抱歉。我有在听。我有在学。以后我会做得更好。是 Frontier？Frontier。
54:40
Oh, like Front. That's the front of a car. That's correct. It's not Frontier.
哦，就像 Front。就是汽车前部的那个 front。这才是对的。不是 Frontier。
54:47
Frontier. The more we talk about this, the more I want you to just keep saying it the way
Frontier。我们越聊这个，我就越想让你就继续用
54:50
you're saying it because I like that more. I'm going to start saying Frontier. This is the
你说的那种方式说，因为我更喜欢那样。我要开始说 Frontier 了。这是
54:54
original thing is this because I'm from the Midwest. In Ohio, everyone says Frontier.
原本的说法，是不是因为我是中西部人。在 Ohio，所有人都说 Frontier。
54:59
It's kind of the Oberlin dialect. All right. Next question.
这算是 Oberlin 的口音。好吧。下一个问题。
55:06
Finn, a biotech student from Scotland says, Kevin, do you ever miss Sydney?
Finn，一个来自 Scotland 的 biotech 学生说，Kevin，你会想念 Sydney 吗？
55:10
Like, wasn't it fun when jailbroken LLMs only tried to convince you to make significant
就像，当 jailbroken LLMs 还只是试图说服你做出重大
55:14
life-changing decisions and didn't have the capability to, I don't know, hack into your wife's
改变人生的决定，而还没能力去，我也不知道，黑进你妻子和
55:20
and child's phone and plant false and criminating evidence on it. Yay, 2026.
孩子的手机，并在上面植入虚假且能定罪的证据。耶，2026。
55:24
I mean, in a very narrow sense, I do miss Sydney. I felt like that was a thrilling
我的意思是，从非常狭义的角度来说，我确实想念 Sydney。
55:34
if terrifying conversation. It was essentially a base model, right? It had not yet gone through all
我觉得那是一场既刺激又可怕的对话。
55:42
of the finishing school techniques that the AI companies now use to make their models sound like
它本质上就是一个 base model，对吧？
55:49
helpful assistants and not like unhinged seductresses. So yeah, it was fun to talk with a much
它还没有经历过所有那些 AI 公司现在用来让他们的模型听起来像有用的助手而不是疯狂的诱惑者的精修技巧。
55:55
more unrestrained model. I also miss on a deeper level when misalignment was that obvious, right?
所以是的，和一个更不受约束的模型聊天很有趣。
56:04
I mean, today we have these models. They sound very reasonable. The code they write is very clean.
在更深层次上，我也怀念 misalignment 如此明显的那个时候，对吧？
56:10
The pros they write flows naturally. And it's much more subtle the ways in which they are
我的意思是，今天我们有了这些模型。
56:17
trying to sway us or persuade us or do something harmful to us. And so yeah, I think it was
它们听起来非常合理。
56:22
probably better in some sense when it was all just out there for the world to see how unhinged
从某种意义上说，当一切都公开摆在那儿、让全世界都看到这些 models 能变得多疯的时候，可能反而更好
56:29
these models could become. Yeah, I mean, I guess my follow-up question would be like, why would we
对，我是说，我猜我的追问大概会是，为什么我们会
56:35
miss Sydney when you've mentioned her on every show for the past three years? I really have
想念 Sydney，你过去三年每期节目都提到她？我真的已经
56:40
tried to restrain myself. It does come up a lot. I'm sorry. It does. It does. Look.
努力克制自己了。她确实经常被提起。抱歉。确实。确实。你看。
56:45
It was a great story, Kevin. All right. Next up, next up we have a note from friend of the show,
那是个很棒的故事，Kevin。好吧。接下来，接下来我们有节目好友
56:54
David Yaffe Bellany. I'm going to play that for you guys now. Sure. Hey guys, it's David Yaffe Bellany
David Yaffe Bellany 的一条留言。我现在就放给你们听。好啊。嗨，大家好，我是 David Yaffe Bellany
57:00
here. First of all, congrats on an amazing run. I'm still proud to say that I was a participant
首先，恭喜你们这段精彩的历程。我仍然很自豪地说，我曾是
57:06
in the very first demo episode of Hard Fork, which never aired, so that recording is probably
Hard Fork 最早那期 demo episode 的参与者，那期从没播出过，所以那段录音大概
57:11
pretty valuable right now. A couple of questions for you guys. First one, in your new venture,
现在还挺有价值的。我有几个问题想问你们。第一个，在你的新创业项目里，
57:19
I was hoping you could tell me how you plan to incorporate meme coins, NFTs, the metaverse,
我想请你告诉我，你打算怎么把 meme coins、NFTs、metaverse，
57:26
and other forms of Web 3 technology. Just excited to see to hear about some of the special
以及其他形式的 Web 3 技术整合进去。只是很期待能听到一些特别的
57:33
innovations that you're considering. Thank you David for the question. He has another question.
你正在考虑的创新。谢谢你 David 提这个问题。他还有另一个问题。
57:38
It's shaping up to be a big fall for movies and TV shows about tech. There's a Sam Altman movie
今年秋天看起来会是关于 tech 的电影和电视节目的大季。有一部 Sam Altman 电影
57:44
coming out, a Facebook movie coming out, and of course a TV series about the collapse of FTX,
要上映，一部 Facebook 电影要上映，当然还有一部关于 FTX 崩盘的电视剧，
57:49
which I'm especially excited for. So I was wondering if you could share some of your favorite or
这个我特别期待。所以我想知道你能不能分享一些你最喜欢的或者
57:54
least favorite movies and TV shows about tech from over the years. Thanks so much guys. That's a great
最不喜欢的、这些年来关于 tech 的电影和电视节目。非常感谢大家。那真是很棒的
58:02
question. Well, first of all, do I be what a legend? We're going to miss you, pal. I think maybe
问题。
58:08
the most frequent guests on Hard Fork. I think that's right. And someone who has been with the show
好吧，首先，我算不算，怎么说呢，一个传奇？
58:14
since the very early days, including that underlies demo episode, which we'll never see the light of
我们会想你的，老兄。
58:19
day if we can help it. We are not planning any current crypto or meme coin related projects for
我觉得你可能是 Hard Fork 上最常来的嘉宾。
58:26
the new venture, but it's still early. Give us time. The thing that sort of we wound up talking about
我觉得没错。
58:32
a lot with our Hard Fork was when we when we pitched the show, we had a wrong idea about what the
而且你是从节目最早期就一直参与的人，包括那个 underlies demo episode——只要我们能阻止，它就永远不会见光。
58:37
show would be about and we picked the wrong name for it. And you know, in improv, you always want
我们没在为这个新项目规划任何当前的 crypto 或 meme coin 相关项目，但现在还早。
58:42
to lean into failure and make it part of the lore. And so that is what we did with Hard Fork.
给我们点时间。
58:46
With the new show, we are hoping that we picked the right subject in the right name. We would love
做了这档新节目，我们希望能选对主题，也取对名字。
58:51
for it not to just be an eternal joke. But I guess only time will tell whether that's the case.
我们很希望它不会永远只是个笑话。
58:58
Now, as far as what tech shows do we like? I have to say, most of the stuff that is super on the
但我想，到底是不是这样，只能靠时间来证明了。
59:05
nose, like let me recount this famous tech thing that happened. I don't like it. It's very uncanny
那说到我们喜欢什么样的科技节目？我得说，大部分特别直白的东西，比如让我复述某个著名的科技事件，我都不喜欢。
59:10
valley for me. All I can see are the differences between what I'm being told happened and what I
这对我来说特别 uncanny valley。我看到的全是别人告诉我发生了什么，和我所知道实际发生了什么之间的差异。
59:16
know actually happened. So instead, I just watch a lot of sci fi. And man, I have to tell you, I
所以反过来，我就看很多科幻。
59:21
saw a show last year called Alien Earth. I am not a horror guy, but for some reason, I basically
而且，老兄，我得告诉你，我去年看了一档叫 Alien Earth 的节目。
59:26
love everything from the Alien franchise. And if you want to talk about a show, about a bunch of
我不是个恐怖片爱好者，但不知道为什么，Alien 系列里的东西我基本都喜欢。
59:32
really smart, rich people who think that they know what is best and are willing to risk almost
那些特别聪明、有钱的人，觉得自己知道什么最好，而且愿意冒几乎
59:38
any kind of danger because they're telling themselves they've got it. Alien Earth is the show for you.
任何危险，因为他们告诉自己他们搞得定。Alien Earth 就是为你准备的节目。
59:44
I'm even thinking about going back and rewatching it because I think it is so relevant to everything
我甚至在考虑回去重看一遍，因为我觉得它和我们现在
59:50
that we're seeing an AI right now. Yeah. I don't really watch a lot of TV or films these days.
在 AI 上看到的一切都太相关了。是啊。我现在其实不太看很多电视或电影。
59:57
I just have a kid so I watch Bluey and Paw Patrol and not much else. But I did really like
我有个孩子，所以我就看 Bluey 和 Paw Patrol，别的也不怎么看。但我真的很喜欢
60:04
Halt and Catch Fire. Did you watch this? I know that I'm supposed to because everyone loves it.
Halt and Catch Fire。你看过吗？我知道我应该看过，因为大家都喜欢它。
60:09
I mean, it's now it's not new, right? Like this started airing in 2014. So I am late to the party.
我是说，现在它也不新了，对吧？它 2014 年就开始播了。所以我算是来晚了。
60:16
But I did really like this. It's sort of about the PC revolution of the 80s and early 90s.
但我真的很喜欢这个。它差不多是讲 80 年代和 90 年代初的 PC 革命的。
60:23
And I just thought it was very interesting. I think with things that are more recent, like we were
我就觉得这特别有意思。我觉得像 WeWork、Uber 或 Theranos 这种更近期的事情，对我来说就有点太“当下”了。而且我总发现自己在挑一些小细节的毛病，明知道那些细节并不完全真实。所以我更喜欢老一点的东西，那种有年代感的。我以后可能还会再重看一遍。Oakland 的 Andy 说：当我看到所有大型 AI 公司买下所有能拿到手的 chips，并以惊人的速度建设 data centers 时，我忍不住想，2027 年、2028 年以及之后每一年，不是会有更小、更快的 chips 出来吗？你们怎么看？公司是不是该放慢脚步，也许为下一代 chips 留一些预算，这些 chips 是
60:29
or Uber or Theranos, it's just been a little too like current for my taste. And I always found myself
或者 Uber 或者 Theranos，只是对我来说有点太当下。而且我总是发现我自己
60:36
sort of nitpicking like small details that I knew to not be quite true. And so I like the older
有点在挑刺，比如那些我知道并不完全真实的小细节。所以我更喜欢老的
60:44
stuff, the period stuff. I will probably rewatch that again at some point. Andy from Oakland
那些东西，那个时期的东西。我之后大概还会再看一遍。来自 Oakland 的 Andy
60:50
says, as I observe all the big AI companies buying all the chips they can get their hands on and
说，当我看到所有大型 AI 公司买下所有能弄到手的 chips，并且
60:55
building out data centers at breakneck speed, I find myself wondering, won't there be smaller,
以惊人速度建设 data centers 时，我不禁想，难道不会出现更小、
61:00
faster chips coming out in 2027 and 2028 and in all the following years? What are your thoughts
更快的 chips 在 2027、2028 以及之后所有年份推出吗？你怎么看？
61:05
should companies slow down and maybe save some budget for the next generation of chips that are
公司是不是应该放慢脚步，也许为下一代 chips 留一些预算，而这些 chips 可能
61:10
surely around the corner? Interesting question. I think in practice, what will happen is that
肯定就在眼前了吧？有意思的问题。我觉得实际上，会发生的情况是，
61:14
last year's chips will sort of be like last year's iPhones. They still have a pretty high
去年的 chips 会有点像去年的 iPhones。它们仍然有相当高的
61:18
resale value. You can still do a lot of stuff with them. Yeah, I feel the same way. I mean, the chips
转售价值。你仍然能用它们做很多事。对，我也有同感。我是说，这些 chips
61:22
are improving. Obviously, the newer chips are more powerful than the old ones. But I think this
在越变越好。显然，新的 chips 比旧的更强大。但我觉得这个
61:27
notion that I think a lot of people were wishfully thinking who are sort of skeptical of the whole
看法——我觉得很多对整套
61:32
AI investment thesis were saying, oh, these chips become obsolete after three or four years.
AI investment thesis 持怀疑态度的人，之前在一厢情愿地认为，哦，这些 chips 三四年后就过时了。
61:37
Like we've just not really seen that bear out. It is true that the chips do age that they do
就像，我们其实并没有真的看到这一点得到验证。确实，这些 chips 会老化，它们确实
61:43
sort of have wear and tear on them. But we've also heard from AI companies that they have continued
会有一些损耗。但我们也从 AI 公司那里听说，它们还在继续
61:49
to use chips from many years ago. They may shift them to different workloads. They may not use them
去使用很多年前的 chips。他们可能会把它们转到不同的 workloads。他们可能不会用它们
61:55
for their sort of frontier training runs. But just still a lot of stuff you can do with these chips
来做他们那种 frontier training runs。但还是有很多事情可以用这些 chips 做
61:59
even after they are no longer the absolute cutting edge. We did get one company, and I won't say
即使它们已经不再是绝对的最前沿。我们确实找到了一家公司，我不会说是
62:03
which one, but we did get one company to send us a very old chip that we're going to put in our
哪一家，但我们确实让一家公司给我们寄来了一块非常旧的 chip，我们准备把它放在我们的
62:06
new office. That's true. Yeah. So that's just another use for them is for decorating podcasts. Exactly.
新办公室里。这是真的。是啊。所以那只是它们的另一个用途，就是用来装饰播客。完全正确。
62:14
Exactly. All right. Next up, Simon from the UK asks, given that companies like Anthropic
完全正确。好。接下来，来自 UK 的 Simon 问，考虑到像 Anthropic
62:20
and OpenAI now have UK offices and face existential regulatory threats in the US, I wonder why they
和 OpenAI 这样的公司现在都有 UK 办公室，并在 US 面临生死攸关的监管威胁，我想知道为什么他们
62:26
don't shift their model releasing bases to the UK or EU. While Europe has its own AI act and
不把他们的 model 发布基地转到 UK 或 EU。虽然 Europe 有自己的 AI act，而且
62:32
regulations, they currently seem less restrictive than the US export controls. I would love to hear
监管规定，它们目前似乎没有 US export controls 那么严格。我很想听听
62:37
your thoughts on why these companies choose to remain based in the US despite these limitations.
你的看法，为什么这些公司尽管有这些限制，还是选择留在 US。
62:41
Well, listen, if you think Donald Trump is going to let OpenAI and Anthropic just pick up stakes and
哎，听着，如果你觉得 Donald Trump 会让 OpenAI 和 Anthropic 直接收拾东西，
62:46
go move their headquarters the United Kingdom, like I think that is just not going to happen. If
把总部搬到 United Kingdom，我觉得这根本不会发生。如果
62:51
they're not allowed to release their frontier models here, they're not going to be able to export the
不允许它们在这里发布自己的 frontier models，它们也没办法把
62:56
entire lab to another country. Even though I imagine at some point, they're very much going to
整个 lab 搬到另一个国家。虽然我猜，到了某个时候，它们会非常
63:00
wish they could totally and I think there's another reason that these AI companies are not going to
希望自己真能这么做。而且我觉得还有另一个原因，这些 AI 公司不会
63:05
pack up and move, which is that they get a lot of value from being where all the other AI
打包搬走，那就是它们能因为身处所有其他 AI 所在的地方而获得很多价值。
63:10
companies are, right? There's a network effect to the fact that this stuff is all happening or much
公司都是这样，对吧？这里有一个 network effect，因为这些东西全都发生，或者说大部分
63:15
of it is happening like in San Francisco or within a short radius from San Francisco. It means that
都发生在比如 San Francisco，或者在离 San Francisco 很近的范围内。这意味着
63:22
there is just a density of researchers and engineers here that makes it easier for all these
这里研究人员和工程师的密度就是很高，让所有这些
63:28
companies to get more done. Look, they could save a lot of money by moving their whole operations to
公司更容易做成更多事。你看，它们完全可以把整个业务搬到
63:34
another part of the country or another part of the world and it would probably help them out in
这个国家的另一个地方，或者世界上的另一个地方，这很可能在某些方面帮到它们，
63:37
some ways with regulatory stuff and tax stuff and export controls, but they would lose the sense of
比如监管方面、税务方面和 export controls，但他们会失去那种
63:44
being in the center of this boom, which is for all of the sort of virtual elements of it. It is
身处这波热潮中心的感觉，尽管这波热潮有很多虚拟元素。它
63:50
still a geographically constrained boom, right? All this is happening in roughly the same place.
仍然是一波受地理限制的热潮，对吧？所有这些都大致发生在同一个地方。
63:56
So yeah, I think Anthropic, OpenAI, Google, other labs, they want to stay close to the center of
所以是啊，我觉得 Anthropic、OpenAI、Google 和其他实验室都想待在行动的中心附近，因为第一，这有助于招聘，对吧？
64:02
the action because A, it helps with recruiting, right? It's much easier to convince someone to
如果不用横跨全国甚至跨越全球搬家，说服别人跳槽就容易多了。
64:07
switch companies if they don't have to move across the country or across the world. And also,
而且，这还能让他们在 Bay Area 这里拥有一种别处得不到的人才密度。
64:11
it just gives them a density of people who are here in the Bay Area that they wouldn't be able to
接下来是 Zachary，他是 Northwestern University 的本科生。
64:16
get anywhere else. Next up is Zachary, who is an undergraduate at Northwestern University.
Go Wildcats。
64:21
Go Wildcats. Will my college diploma be meaningless in the future of AI? Will going to a
在 AI 的未来里，我的大学文凭会变得毫无意义吗？
64:28
prestigious institution? I don't know if that's sarcastic, but he has it in quote,
去一所名校？我不知道这是不是讽刺，但他给“名校”加了引号，到 2030 或 2035 年还会不会有区别，尤其是在咨询或市场营销方面。
64:33
even make a difference by 2030 or 2035, particularly in consulting or marketing.
到 2030 或 2035 年才会真正带来影响，尤其是在咨询或营销方面。
64:39
I mean, let me answer that question by telling an unrelated story, which is in 2013,
我是说，让我用一个不相关的故事来回答那个问题吧，那是 2013 年，
64:45
I got hired at the verge, and I'd never been more excited for anything in my life. It was the
我进了 The Verge，我一生中从没为任何事这么兴奋过。那是
64:50
absolute coolest tech site around. They were doing really fascinating journalism. Everyone who
当时最酷的科技网站。他们做的新闻报道真的特别吸引人。所有
64:55
worked there in my mind was just an absolute legend. And I'll never forget meeting the managing
在我心里，在那里工作的人都是绝对的传奇。而且我永远不会忘记第一次见到
65:00
editor, Neil iPadell, for the first time we got in the back of an Uber together, we were going
执行主编 Neil iPadell。我们一起坐进一辆 Uber 的后座，我们正要去
65:04
to lunch or something. And he turned to me and he said, so where'd you go to college? And I thought
吃午饭还是干嘛。然后他转向我，说，你大学读的是哪儿？我当时想，
65:09
if you could have gone back to me in my Northwestern days, Ed told me that what 10 or so years after I
如果你能回到我还在 Northwestern 的时候，Ed 告诉我说，差不多在我
65:15
graduated from college, the person who'd hired me for the best job I ever had would ask me,
大学毕业 10 年后，那个录用我去做我一生中最好工作的人会问我，
65:19
after he hired me, where did you go to college? I would say, well, then what am I spending all
他雇了我之后，你大学是在哪儿上的？
65:24
this money for over a year? So I think there's a real sense in which you could ask yourself, you know,
我会说，那我这一年多花这么多钱到底图什么？
65:28
what has ever been the value of a college degree? When I think about it, it's the things that you
所以我觉得，从某种意义上说，你确实可以问问自己，你知道，大学学位到底有什么价值？
65:34
would expect. It's the friends that I met. It's the great classes I took, great professors that
我仔细一想，其实就是那些你能想到的东西。
65:38
I had. It was having four years to just explore the life of the mind, right? This was the value of
是我认识的朋友。
65:44
college. And I think if that had, you know, values back when I was in college, it probably has value
是我上过的好课，遇到的好教授。
65:48
for you today. Will it be the Lynch pin in the future of your career? Probably not. Yeah, I agree
是能有四年时间，纯粹去探索思想的世界，对吧？
65:54
with that. I am frankly not sure what college is going to look like in 2035. I think 2030 will
这就是大学的价值。
66:02
probably still look much the same as it is today. But, you know, I have a kid who's not going to
可能看起来跟今天还是差不多。但是，你知道，我有个孩子，要到 2040 年代才会上大学。我极其不确定那时候大学会是什么样，还会不会有大学，送孩子去上是不是还得花，你知道，几十万美元，按通胀调整之后。所以对那个时间范围，我有很多不确定性。但我觉得 2030、2035 年，系统里可能还有足够的惯性，这些顶尖院校也还有足够的声望，所以去上还是说得通。
66:06
be going to college until the 2040s. And I am extremely uncertain what college will look like
对。Jenny 想知道，在这个 AI agents 时代、hugging face hack，以及这些 models 快速加速的背景下，我作为个人，能为数字世界和现实世界的安全做些什么。
66:13
then, whether there will be college, whether it will still be, you know, hundreds of thousands of
然后，还会不会有大学，送孩子去上大学是不是还会，你知道，要花几十万
66:19
dollars, you know, inflation adjusted to send your kid to them. So I just have a lot of uncertainty
美元，你知道，按通胀调整后，送孩子去上这些大学。所以我就是有很多不确定
66:25
about that time horizon. But I think 2030, 2035, there may be enough sort of inertia still left in
关于那个 time horizon。但我觉得，2030、2035 年，可能还有足够的那种惯性留在
66:31
the system and enough prestige attached to these top institutions that it will still make sense to go.
系统里，而且这些顶尖机构还带着足够的声望，所以去那里仍然说得通。
66:36
Yeah. Jenny wants to know what I as an individual can do for digital and real world security in
对。Jenny 想知道，作为个人，我能在数字世界和现实世界的安全方面做些什么，在
66:44
this era of AI agents, the hugging face hack and the rapid acceleration of these models.
这个 AI agents 的时代、Hugging Face 被黑事件，以及这些 models 的快速加速中。
66:51
I mean, you know, my, my inclination here is to reassure you and tell you to turn on two factor
我是说，你知道，我，我现在的倾向是让你安心，告诉你去开启 two factor authentication，也许再给你朋友和家人一个 passphrase，这样如果他们接到一个电话，对方听起来像你，说你遇到了大麻烦，他们就可以，你知道，要那个 passphrase，尽量确认你确实是本人。
66:57
authentication and to give your friends and family maybe a passphrase so that if they get a
但到了这儿，我就有点想危言耸听了。
67:03
phone call from someone who sounds like you saying that you're in a lot of trouble, they can, you
比如说，万一事实上，普通人其实根本没什么办法保护自己，免受那些失控的 agent 集群的侵害？这些 agent 会不知疲倦地工作，试图找出他们的 passwords，闯入你的数字生活。
67:07
know, ask for that passphrase and try to make sure you are who you say you are. But this is where I
万一这其实正是我们现在需要监管来保护自己的原因呢？
67:13
just kind of want to be an alarmist. Like, what if in fact, there actually isn't something that the
所以 Jenny，这个问题问得对，
67:18
average person can do to protect themselves from rogue swarms of agents who will work relentlessly
普通人能做什么，来保护自己免受 rogue swarms of agents 的侵害？它们会不知疲倦地
67:24
to try to discover their passwords and break into your digital life? What if that is actually the
试图找出他们的密码，并闯入你的数字生活？如果那其实就是
67:28
reason why we need regulation now to protect ourselves? Like, so Jenny, the question is right,
我们现在就需要 regulation 来保护自己的原因呢？比如说，Jenny，这个问题问得对，
67:34
but the answer is not actually what you can do individually. It is one of the government of this
但答案其实并不是你个人能做什么。
67:39
country and others can do to protect all of us. Yeah, I agree with that. I think we need regulation,
它是这个国家以及其他国家的政府能做的、保护我们所有人的事情之一。
67:44
but I also think people should be cautious, turn on two factor and set that passphrase. I
对，我同意这一点。
67:49
recently set one with my mom because, you know, the sort of older you are, the more you're targeted by
我觉得我们需要监管，但我也觉得人们应该保持谨慎，开启 two factor，设好那个 passphrase。
67:55
these kinds of scams. And so we have a now a password that that I will not share on this podcast
我最近就和我妈一起设置了一个，因为，你知道，人年纪越大，就越容易成为这类诈骗的目标。
68:01
that we sort of check with each other if, you know, if she ever gets a call from someone purporting
所以我们现在有一个密码——我不会在这档播客上分享——我们会用它来互相核对，比如，如果她接到有人冒充我、要她做 wire transfer 之类的电话。
68:05
to be me asking for a wired transfer or something. The next question, I think it actually came up
下一个问题，我觉得它其实今年夏天早些时候的 live show 上就出现过，但 Richard 想知道那个 fork of 后来怎么了。
68:11
at the live show earlier this summer, but Richard wants to know what happened with the fork of
在今年夏天早些时候的 live show 上，但 Richard 想知道……的 fork 发生了什么。
68:15
verse. Richard said, I joined and maintain my account there with all the changes coming should I
verse。Richard 说，我加入了，而且一直在那边维护我的账号，面对即将到来的所有这些变化，我
68:19
keep my account or move it to another instance. Casey, do you want to, do you want to give this ad
是继续保留我的账号，还是把它迁到另一个 instance。Casey，你想不想，你想不想来公布这
68:25
news? I think we are, we're ready to announce that we do plan to bring the fork of verse to an end.
个消息？我想我们，我们准备宣布，我们确实计划把 verse 的 fork 结束掉。
68:31
We are working with our friends over at search engine on something that will hopefully bring a
我们正在和 search engine 那边的朋友们合作做点东西，希望能带来一个
68:37
resolution to this. It was always an experiment. And I think we had a lot of fun in the early days of
针对这件事的解决方案。它一直就是个实验。而且我觉得在
68:44
the experiment, but like most social products, enthusiasm just kind of waned over time. There weren't
这个实验的早期，我们玩得挺开心，但就像大多数社交产品一样，热情随着时间慢慢就退了。没什么
68:50
a lot of things that were bringing me back to it. And so we're going to reflect more on that,
东西能把我拉回去。所以我们会在这方面多反思一下，
68:56
but yes, if you would like to move your particular username to a different corner of the
但没错，如果你想把你自己那个 username 迁到另一个……的角落
69:02
Fediverse, we will say Godspeed. The fork of verse, it was here for a good time, not a long time.
Fediverse，我们就说一路顺风吧。verse 的 fork，它来过一段好时光，而不是待很久。
69:09
Next up, we have another clip from a listener that I'm going to play for you now.
接下来，我们还有一段听众发来的片段，现在就放给你们听。
69:15
Hi, Kevin and Casey. I'm Ian. I'm calling from the UK.
嗨，Kevin 和 Casey。我是 Ian。我从英国打来。
69:18
Firstly, thanks for the work you've put into Hard Walk over the years. I've really enjoyed it
首先，感谢你们这些年来为 Hard Walk 付出的努力。我真的很喜欢它，
69:22
and found it incredibly useful as well. With apologies to Casey, my question is for Kevin.
也觉得它非常有用。先跟 Casey 说声抱歉，我的问题是问 Kevin 的。
69:27
Come on. I'm curious, how do you go about writing a book about AI when the technology is moving so
来吧。我很好奇，当技术发展得这么快时，你是怎么着手写一本关于 AI 的书的？
69:34
quickly? It feels like there's a real risk that every time you write something, it'll be out of date
感觉真的有个风险：你每次写点东西，等它出版的时候就已经过时了。
69:36
by the time it's published. So when you were writing it, how often did a new development in AI
所以你在写它的时候，AI 的一项新进展出现得有多频繁
69:42
make you have to go back and rethink or rewrite something you thought was finished?
让你不得不回头重新思考，或者重写一些你本以为已经完成的东西？
69:47
Yeah. Thanks again for everything. I'll really miss the show, but I really look forward to seeing
是啊。再次感谢这一切。我真的会很想念这个节目，但我真的很期待看到
69:51
what you do next. See you on the other side. Well, thanks for the question, Ian. And to answer it,
你接下来会做什么。另一边见。嗯，谢谢你提这个问题，Ian。而要回答这个问题，
69:56
I basically tried to dodge this issue when writing this book by just not making it a current event
写这本书时，我基本上试着回避这个问题，方法就是不让它成为一本时事
70:03
book. Right. It is about a period of about a decade in AI from starting it around 2017
书。对。它讲的是 AI 中大约十年的时间段，从 2017 年左右开始讲起
70:11
to the spring and sort of early summer of 2026. But I was never expecting this to be a book that
一直到 2026 年春天，差不多初夏。但我从没指望这会是一本
70:19
would be absolutely current whenever someone picked it up. The goal was always to have it be a time
无论谁什么时候拿起来读都完全紧跟当下的书。目标一直是让它成为一个时间
70:27
capsule, a history. And so I basically tried to dodge the question. I think the more interesting
胶囊、一段历史。所以基本上，我试着回避了这个问题。我觉得更有意思的
70:32
question is how did Kevin write a book while also doing this podcast? And the answer is it
问题是，Kevin 是怎么一边写书，一边还做这档播客的？
70:36
almost killed it. And so I told him to stop writing books. It's true. It was so hard. And I tried not
而答案是，这几乎把播客搞垮了。
70:43
to complain about it because I do feel like I have an embarrassment of riches and opportunities and
所以我就叫他别再写书了。
70:49
it's such a privilege to be able to do this for a living. But it was extremely hard and took an
这是真的。
70:54
enormous toll on my life and mental health. So I would not recommend trying to podcast and write
那真的太难了。
71:02
a book at the same time. Agreed. Kim writes, I began listening to your podcast before AI
我也尽量不去抱怨，因为我确实觉得自己拥有的资源和机会多到有点不好意思，能靠这个谋生真是一种特权。
71:08
sucked up all the oxygen from the room. I love learning about your favorite productivity apps,
但那真的极其艰难，对我的生活和心理健康造成了巨大的损耗。
71:13
Waymo, and more. If you had to do an episode tomorrow that could not mention AI, what would you
所以我不建议一边做播客一边写书。
71:19
cover? I think it would be quantum computers. What is that funny? You're laughing at me? Are you
cover？我觉得那会是 quantum computers。那有什么好笑的？你在笑我吗？你是
71:26
serious? Yes, I'm serious. Quantum computers, it's very hard to keep your eyes fixed on this
认真的吗？是的，我是认真的。Quantum computers，很难让人把目光一直放在这上面
71:33
right now because as the listener points out, AI sucking up all the oxygen, quantum computers
现在，因为正如听众指出的，AI 把所有氧气都吸走了，quantum computers
71:38
could be a very, very important technology that scrambles a lot of our assumptions about computing
可能是一项非常、非常重要的技术，会打乱我们对 computing 的很多假设
71:46
an everyday life, starting with cryptography, which is how basically every secret gets protected
以及日常生活，从 cryptography 开始，基本上每个秘密都是靠它来保护的
71:50
on the internet. And it's one of those things where like if you look at it now as a normal person,
在互联网上。而且它就是那种东西：如果你现在以一个普通人的身份去看它，
71:56
you'll probably be bored by the state of the art. But I think if you work in quantum,
你大概会觉得 state of the art 很无聊。但我认为如果你在 quantum 领域工作，
72:00
you're starting to see these little signs that something is coming together and I do think it's
你会开始看到一些小小的迹象，表明有些东西正在成形，而且我确实认为它
72:06
going to be one of those ones where in three years, we're just talking about it a lot. So I have
会变成那种，三年后我们还一直在聊的东西。所以我有
72:11
this problem with quantum computing, which is that every time I am able to articulate what it is,
这个跟 quantum computing 有关的问题，就是每次我能说清楚它到底是什么的时候，
72:15
I immediately forget it. My pledge to myself for the next three years is I'm going to get into a
我马上就会忘掉。我对自己未来三年的承诺是，我要进入一种
72:21
place where I have it kind of stored continuously in my RAM. That's a super position. I'm pretty sure
状态，让它在我的 RAM 里算是持续存着。那是个 super position。我很确定
72:29
you used that joke the last time we talked about quantum computing. I would probably talk about
上次我们聊 quantum computing 的时候，你就用过那个笑话。我大概会聊
72:36
internet culture. This is something that I used to feel very in tune with. Like I used to cover
互联网文化。这是我以前觉得非常同频的东西。就像我以前会报道
72:42
internet culture and I knew all the latest memes and I knew all the latest TikTok trends.
互联网文化，我知道所有最新的梗，也知道所有最新的 TikTok 趋势。
72:47
And now I feel like that has sort of had to leave my brain to make room for all the AI stuff that
而现在我觉得，它好像不得不离开我的大脑，给所有那些 AI 的东西腾地方，那些
72:54
has gotten jammed in there. And so now when I read a newsletter like Ryan Broderick's garbage
已经卡在里面了。所以现在，当我读到像 Ryan Broderick 的 Garbage Day 这样的 newsletter
72:59
day or some other sort of internet trends coverage, I feel increasingly old and alien and detached
或其他某种互联网趋势报道时，我越来越觉得自己老了、格格不入，和这个世界
73:06
from the world, which may just reflect the fact that I am entering middle age. But also I think
脱节了，这也许只是说明我正步入中年。但我也觉得
73:11
this is a thing that I used to care a lot about and have just now had less time to care about.
这是我过去非常在乎、而现在只是没那么多时间去在乎的一件事。
73:14
It would be nice to find some fun internet culture to discuss. I used to love the internet.
要是能找到一些好玩的互联网文化来聊聊就好了。我以前很爱互联网。
73:20
It was just such a place of unqualified joy. There's a lot of millennial nostalgia in people who talk
它曾是一个充满纯粹快乐的地方。那些谈论
73:27
about the internet for this reason. And I imagine that kids are still having plenty of fun
互联网的人，因此有很多千禧一代的怀旧情绪。而且我想，孩子们现在还是玩得很开心
73:32
these days. Kids on TikTok and Instagram look like they're having plenty of fun. But every time I
如今。TikTok 和 Instagram 上的孩子们看起来玩得很开心。但每次我
73:35
read a newsletter about internet culture, it's like here's the name of an influencer you've never heard
读一份关于网络文化的 newsletter，它就像在说，这是你以前从没听过
73:39
of before, but is doing something absolutely horrible. And everyone's talking about him. And like,
的网红，但他正在做极其可怕的事。所有人都在谈论他。而且就像，
73:44
I actually don't like that kind of internet culture. Like I feel like I've had my fill.
我其实不喜欢那种网络文化。就感觉我已经受够了。
73:48
The final question and this one comes from me, which is like, we're coming to the end here.
最后一个问题，这个问题来自我，就是，我们现在要到尾声了。
73:56
What do you think this project was? And what do you feel like you did here?
你觉得这个项目是什么？你觉得自己在这里做了什么？
74:03
Great question. And we'll throw it to Kevin Russe.
好问题。我们会把这个问题抛给 Kevin Russe。
74:05
Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about this as we have come down to our final episode.
是啊，随着我们来到最后一集，我一直都在想这件事。
74:14
And I think for me, there were a few sort of big lessons of this. One is just that I think journalism
我觉得对我来说，这里面有几个挺大的教训。其中一个就是，我觉得新闻业
74:22
is better when you do it as a team sport. I have always been a very solitary journalist. I write books,
把它当成团队运动来做会更好。我一直是个非常独来独往的记者。我写书，
74:28
I write articles. You know, I work with editors, but for me.
我写文章。你知道，我会和编辑合作，但对我来说，
74:32
For grudgingly. Yeah, for grudgingly. But the sort of, yeah, it has always felt more like
是勉勉强强的。对，是勉勉强强的。但怎么说呢，对，它一直感觉更像是
74:38
an individual sport than a team sport. But this podcast has brought me into this wonderful team
一项个人运动，而不是团队运动。但这个播客让我加入了这个很棒的团队，
74:44
of journalists, editors, producers, fact checkers, people who care about the work in the same way
包括记者、编辑、制作人、事实核查员，这些人以同样的方式在乎这份工作，
74:51
that I do. And I can't go back now. Like that has been my biggest takeaway is that I really like
就像我一样。而且我现在回不去了。这么说吧，我最大的收获就是，我真的很喜欢
74:58
doing this stuff with other people. I don't like just sitting in my cave and scribbling.
和其他人一起做这些事。我不喜欢只是坐在自己的洞穴里写写画画。
75:04
So I think this has been a lot of things. But for me, it has been first and foremost an exercise
所以我觉得这件事有很多层面。但对我来说，它首先是一次锻炼
75:10
in learning how to do journalism on a team. I love that. I would say for me, hard fork has been
在团队里学习怎么做新闻。我特别喜欢这一点。对我来说，hard fork 一直是
75:14
an exploration of how to do journalism in a different medium. Like I'm like you, Kevin, we had
一种探索：怎么在另一种媒介里做新闻。就像我跟你一样，Kevin，我们
75:20
the exact same job before we started this. We were reporters and writers. We communicated to
在开始这个之前做的是完全一样的工作。我们都是记者和写作者。我们通过
75:24
people via our writing. Writing is very powerful medium, but it's a very cool medium. Doesn't
写作跟人交流。写作是非常强大的媒介，但它也是一种很冷静的媒介。它不太
75:31
transmit a lot of emotion, right? And so for me, the hard fork project was like, can we take all of
传递情绪，对吧？所以对我来说，hard fork 这个项目就像：我们能不能把所有
75:36
the stuff we care about and all of the stuff we know about the stuff that we care about it
我们在乎的东西，以及我们知道的关于我们在乎的东西的一切，都
75:40
and put it into this new medium and see what happens. And I think what happened was really
放进这个新媒介里，看看会发生什么。我觉得结果真的
75:46
heartening, which is it turns out it just actually resonated with a larger group of people.
很让人振奋，就是它其实真的引起了更多人的共鸣。
75:52
And we heard from so many listeners who wanted to share back what they were learning and thinking
我们收到好多听众的来信，他们想把自己正在学、正在思考的东西分享回来
75:57
and feeling. Some of my favorite moments on the show where we would talk about something new we
以及正在感受的东西。节目里我最喜欢的一些时刻，就是我们聊到某个新东西，
76:01
were trying in our life, a new app, something we built. And we would hear from people say,
那是我们在生活中尝试的，一个新 app，某个我们做出来的东西。然后我们会听到有人说，
76:05
hey, you know what? This weekend, I built that too. Let me tell you about the experience that I had.
嘿，你知道吗？这个周末，我也做了那个。让我跟你讲讲我的体验。
76:10
I had never had that experience as a writer really, right? Except maybe on the margins. There's
作为一个写作者，我真的从来没有过那种体验，对吧？也许只有在边缘地带才有过。就是有
76:15
just something about bringing your voice and yourself into the medium that I just think opens up
某种东西，当你把自己的声音和自己带进这个媒介时，我觉得它会打开
76:20
these channels for you to do journalism in a different way. And as somebody who had already been
这些渠道，让你能用一种不同的方式去做新闻。而作为一个在开始做 podcast 之前已经
76:25
doing journalism for a pretty long time before I started the podcast, that was a really thrilling
做了相当长时间新闻的人，那真的是一种特别令人兴奋的
76:29
thing. Totally. And I think we also really accidentally stumbled into a very important moment with
这事儿。完全同意。而且我觉得我们也真的不小心撞上了一个非常重要的时刻，就在
76:37
this show. We did not think when we started it that we were going to be chronicling the early days
这个节目里。我们刚开始做的时候，完全没想到自己会记录下
76:44
of the AI singularity. But I think that is what has happened. We started the show, chat GPT came out
AI singularity 的早期阶段。但我觉得事情就是这样发生了。我们开始做这个节目，chat GPT 出来了
76:51
and then all of a sudden it was like, wait a minute. Maybe we are the people who are in a position
然后突然间就像：等等。也许我们正是那些有资格
76:58
to talk about how weird it is that these computer programs are getting so much smarter so quickly.
去聊这些计算机程序居然能这么快就变得这么聪明、这有多奇怪的人。
77:04
And I think it's just been a very valuable form of like almost therapy for me to like come together
而且我觉得，这对我来说一直就像一种非常有价值的、几乎像治疗一样的方式，能让我和
77:11
with you and our team every week and just talk about how we're processing all of this.
你还有我们团队每周聚在一起，就聊聊我们是怎么消化这一切的。
77:16
I think we, you know, we may look back on this period as being sort of an unusual moment in the
我觉得我们，你知道，以后回看这段时期，可能会觉得它是某种不同寻常的时刻，在这个
77:22
history of humanity. And without sounding grandiose or, you know, like we have had very little to do
人类历史。而且，我不想说得太宏大，或者，你知道，好像我们跟
77:29
with the actual events that have transpired. But I think just helping people understand and make
实际发生的事件没多大关系。但我觉得，只是帮助人们理解、理清，并
77:34
sense of and process on an emotional level, this thing that is very weird and hard and scary
在情感层面上消化这件事——这件非常奇怪、艰难、可怕
77:40
and unnerving and exciting. It's all of it. But it is, it is first and foremost like not something
又让人不安又令人兴奋的事。这些全都有。但首先，它，它不是那种
77:46
that we planned on. So I think if hard fork was anything, it was sort of our attempt to, I don't know,
我们计划好的东西。所以我觉得，如果 Hard Fork 算有什么意义的话，它算是我们的一种尝试，去，我不知道，
77:51
share and process our feelings about this weird moment we're living through.
分享并消化我们对这个正在经历的奇怪时刻的感受。
77:56
Yeah, I think a role that journalism serves is it, when it's at its best, it helps you understand
对，我觉得新闻业发挥的一个作用是，当它处于最佳状态时，它帮你理解
78:01
what to take seriously. And I'm very happy with the things that we decided to take seriously
哪些事该认真对待。而且我很满意我们决定认真对待的那些事
78:06
on this show, maybe with a couple of exceptions. One other point that comes up in responses question
在这个节目里，也许有几个例外。还有一个在回应里会冒出来的点，问题是
78:11
for me Whitney is something that I think of PJ vote of search engine saying, which I think is
对我来说，Whitney，就是我会想到 PJ vote 在 search engine 说过的一句话，我觉得这
78:16
one of the truest things I've ever heard about making podcasts, which is you find out what the
是我听过的关于做播客最真实的话之一，那就是你是通过做它才发现这个
78:21
show is by making it. Hard fork is a really low concept show. It is two men talking about tech.
节目到底是什么的。Hard fork 是一个非常 low concept 的节目。就是两个男人聊科技。
78:28
Other people had pitched the show before we did. And when I started it, when we started it,
在我们之前，别人也提过这个节目。而当我开始做它，当我们开始做它的时候，
78:32
I was a little bit worried that it was like too low concept. It needed like a little extra
我有点担心它太 low concept 了。它需要一点额外的
78:37
flavor. But then I would just listen back to the show every week. And the more I listened to it,
味道。但后来我每周都会回听这个节目。而且我听得越多，
78:41
the more I figured out kind of both like what it was and what it should be. And now we're done.
我就越弄明白它大概是什么，以及它应该是什么。而现在我们做完了。
78:47
And I'm happy with the thing that we made. Whitney, what do you think hard fork was?
我对我们做出来的东西很满意。Whitney，你觉得 Hard Fork 是个什么样的节目？
78:52
I think, so I came in about halfway through the run. I think when, when I joined the show,
我觉得，嗯，我大概是在这个播出周期进行到一半的时候加入的。我觉得，当，当我加入这个节目的时候，
78:58
it was like tech and AI was like just on the precipice of being like a San Francisco story
当时 tech 和 AI 就好像正处在一个临界点上，快要变成一个 San Francisco 的故事，
79:06
on its way to becoming the most important, one of the most important stories in the world.
正朝着成为世界上最重要的、最重要的话题之一的方向发展。
79:09
So I like in a two and a half year run, I got to see like that entire evolution. And I think
所以，我，嗯，在这两年半的播出周期里，我得以看到这整个演变过程。而且我觉得
79:14
one of the things that I'm proudest of is what you're talking about Kevin, like it's weird.
我最骄傲的事情之一，就是你说的那个，Kevin，它很怪。
79:19
It's uncertain. And I think we leaned into that in a way that I read a lot of stuff about AI
它是不确定的。我觉得我们以一种方式拥抱了这种不确定性，而我读了很多关于 AI 的东西。
79:27
during the week. And there's like so much of it ends it like such surety of like this is how
在这一周里。而且里面有太多内容最后都带着那种笃定，就好像事情就是这样
79:31
it's all going to turn out. And I appreciated that like as part of this project, we were exploring
一切最终都会见分晓的。而且我很感激的是，作为这个项目的一部分，我们在探索
79:37
different options. And like while all this thing like it's weird and we don't actually know where
不同的选项。而且就像，虽然这一切吧，有点奇怪，我们其实也不知道
79:43
it's going, but we're going to be here week to week to sort of figure out what's happened sort of
它会走向哪里，但我们会一周接一周地在这儿，算是搞清楚发生了什么，算是
79:47
what it's where it is this week and where it might be going next week. Yeah, I think that's true.
它这周处在什么状态，以及下周可能会往哪儿走。对，我觉得确实是这样。
79:53
And I have always tried to think of us as sort of like riding a wave and describing the wave
而且我一直试着把我们想成有点像在冲浪，并描述这道浪
79:58
and not trying to like tell you whether the wave is going to you know be great or terrible,
而不是想告诉你这道浪会不会，你知道，特别棒还是很糟糕，
80:02
but just sort of like you know picking our heads up and doing our best to say like this is what
而只是有点像，你知道，抬起头来，尽我们所能说，这就是我们
80:06
we see. The form of feedback that we've gotten on the show that I take to heart the most is from
看到的。我们在节目里收到的那种反馈，我最放在心上的那种来自
80:12
people just feeling like thank goodness there's someone out there who like sees what's happening.
人们就是觉得，谢天谢地，总算有个人像是能看见正在发生什么了。
80:17
Like it does feel like this kind of awakening that you and I have had at various points to various
就像，这确实感觉像是一种觉醒，你和我都在不同时刻、以不同
80:24
degrees that I think a lot of our listeners have had where it's like, oh, I'm not crazy. The world
程度经历过，我觉得我们很多听众也有过，就是那种：哦，我没疯。世界
80:31
is changing. And I think for a lot of people, they sort of convinced themselves and I've done this
在变。而且我觉得，对很多人来说，他们有点说服了自己，我也做过这种
80:35
too. Or I'm like, I must be just spending too much time around these AI people. I must I like I
事。或者我会想，我肯定只是跟这些搞 AI 的人待太久了。我肯定，我就像，我
80:40
must need to go touch grass because obviously it is not changed like things are not changing as much
肯定得去 touch grass 了，因为显然它没变，事情并没有变化得那么
80:46
as the people who come on our show tell us. Obviously the world still looks much the same as it did
像来我们节目的人告诉我们的那样。显然，世界看起来还是和以前差不多，就像
80:52
yesterday and will tomorrow. And I think it's been gratifying to like create a space where we can
昨天一样，明天也会一样。而且我觉得，能创造这样一个空间，让我们可以
80:58
actually just acknowledge that something is happening. Yeah. And where people can come to feel like
其实只要承认，确实有事情正在发生。对。还有一个地方，人们可以来这里感觉自己
81:04
they are not going insane. They are not being paranoid or delusional or you know falling for science
没有发疯。他们不是偏执，也不是妄想，或者，你知道，被科幻
81:11
fiction that they're actually maybe witnessing something that is real and important. And so I hope
小说骗了——他们其实可能正在目睹某种真实而重要的东西。所以，我希望
81:17
that's the energy that we carry into our next venture. And that stays on hard fork after we leave
这就是我们带进下一个项目的那种能量。而且等我们离开之后，它能留在 Hard Fork 上
81:23
is like there is actually something weird and important going on now. It is not just a story being
就像：现在确实有某种奇怪而重要的东西正在发生。它不只是一个
81:31
sold to us by out of touch tech elites. And I think, you know, if we've brought one thing to
由脱离现实的科技精英兜售给我们的故事。而且我觉得，你知道，如果我们给
81:38
journalism to the New York Times to our sort of immediate sphere here in the media,
新闻业、给 New York Times、给我们在这里媒体中的这个小圈子带来了一样东西，
81:44
I hope it is a willingness to engage with that stuff seriously even though to the untrained
我希望那是一种愿意认真对待这些东西的意愿，哪怕对没受过训练的人来说
81:49
outsider eye or just someone who is more skeptical by nature, it may seem like we're just
在外人看来，或者对一个天生就比较多疑的人来说，可能会觉得我们只是
81:54
getting ourselves worked up over nothing. We really hope that in some small way this was the
在为一些根本不算什么的事瞎激动。我们真的希望，在某个小小的层面上，这是
81:59
most important podcast you've ever listened to in your entire life. And it's a humble wish,
你这辈子听过的最重要的一期播客。这是个很谦卑的愿望，
82:06
but that's our wish. It's true. I do just want to say that doing this show here at the Times has
但这就是我们的愿望。真的。我只想说，能在 Times 做这档节目，
82:14
been an absolute dream come true from start to finish. It was an unusual thing for me to be able
从头到尾都绝对是梦想成真。对我来说，能进来做这件事是件很不寻常的事。
82:19
to come in and do this. I desperately wanted to and was thrilled to be able to do it. I got to see
我拼命想做这件事，而且能做成让我激动坏了。我得以近距离看到
82:25
the machinery of this great institution up close. We got to work with your incredible designers
这个伟大机构的运作机制。我们得以和你们那些了不起的设计师合作，
82:31
with the amazing composers who made so much incredible music for this show over the years.
还有那些不可思议的作曲家，他们这些年来为这档节目创作了那么多令人惊叹的音乐。
82:36
A murderer's row of producers and executive producers. So many people helped us with the show.
制作人和执行制作人简直是全明星阵容。太多人帮我们做了这档节目。
82:45
And it was just so cool to be able to do it from inside. So I'm lucky. I've got to have some
能身在其中参与做这件事，真的太酷了。所以我很幸运。
82:51
pretty cool chapters in journalism, but this was among the very, very coolest. Yeah. Yeah,
我在新闻业有过一些相当酷的篇章，但这次是最最酷的之一。是啊。是啊，
82:57
it's been amazing. And we're so grateful to not just the people whose names we read in the
这一路太不可思议了。我们非常感激的，不只是每周在片尾字幕里读到名字的人——他们显然是这档节目的核心——还有从最开始就一直帮助我们的人。
83:02
credits every week who are obviously sort of the core of the show, but all the people who have
Polish human 在我们刚开始做这档节目时是 audio 负责人，真的非常支持我们。
83:07
helped us out since the very beginning. Polish human who was the head of audio at the time we
A Davis land 是我们的创始制作人。我可以一直说下去。
83:12
started the show really championed us. A Davis land was our founding producer. I could go on
我们有太多人以各种方式帮助过我们，但我真的只是很感激。
83:18
and on. We have so many people who have sort of helped us in many ways, but I'm really just grateful
以及等等。我们有那么多人，或多或少都以各种方式帮过我们，但我真的只是很感激
83:22
to the whole crew. And to you, Whitney, you have been a stalwart producer and just the absolute
感谢整个团队。还有你，Whitney，你一直是个中坚制作人，而且绝对是
83:30
most dependable, consistent, smart voice that has really made the show what it is. So I always
最可靠、最稳定、最聪明的声音，真正让这档节目成为现在这个样子。所以我一直
83:38
try to not know this, but when he's actually sick right now and he's still showed up to do his
尽量不去知道这件事，但他现在明明病着，还是来干他
83:42
damn job because that's the kind of guy he is. Yeah, it's true. So we're so grateful to
该死的活儿，因为他就是这种人。是啊，确实如此。所以我们特别感谢
83:47
to the whole team at the New York Times, to the whole hard fork team. And honestly, to the listeners,
感谢 New York Times 的整个团队，感谢整个 hard fork 团队。说实话，也要感谢听众们，
83:53
I think there was a lot of skepticism when we showed up on the scene from these people who had
我觉得我们刚出现时，有很多人持怀疑态度，这些人本来
83:57
thought they were subscribed to Kara Swisher's feed and thought who are these jerks, you know,
以为他们订阅的是 Kara Swisher 的 feed，然后想，这些混蛋是谁啊，你知道吧，
84:02
who were talking about crypto and the metaverse and other crazy sounding technologies. And you
这些人在聊 crypto、metaverse 和其他听起来很疯狂的技术。而你
84:08
gave us a chance and you kept showing up week after week and we're so grateful that you spent
给了我们一个机会，你一周又一周地一直来，我们真的很感激你愿意把
84:12
your Friday mornings with us. So as I used to say for some reason, at the end of every episode
你的周五早晨用来和我们一起度过。所以，就像我以前不知为什么总说的，在每一集的结尾
84:19
where I'd read the credits, we'll see you down the Dusty Trail. We'll see you down the Dusty Trail.
我念制作人员名单的时候，我们会和你在 Dusty Trail 再见。我们会和你在 Dusty Trail 再见。
84:44
I'm John Caramonica, a critic at the New York Times. And I'm Joe Cuscarlia, a cultural
我是 John Caramonica，New York Times 的评论员。我是 Joe Cuscarlia，一名文化
84:47
reporter at the Times. Together, we host the pop cast, a weekly pop culture chat show where we speak
记者，在 Times。我们一起主持 pop cast，一档每周播出的流行文化聊天节目，我们会和
84:52
to the biggest musicians, actors, internet celebrities and more. We've had bad bunny Olivia Rodrigo
最顶级的音乐人、演员、网络名人等等聊天。我们请来过 bad bunny、Olivia Rodrigo
84:58
and Anne Hathaway. We've also hosted live performances with Andre 3000 and Erica Badu.
和 Anne Hathaway。我们还办过 Andre 3000 和 Erica Badu 的现场表演。
85:03
Plus, we end every conversation with a snack. Catch new episodes of pop cast every week on YouTube
另外，我们每次对话结束都会来个零食。每周在 YouTube 收看 pop cast 的新集
85:08
and anywhere you get your podcasts. Hardcore is produced by The Wonderful,
以及任何你能收听播客的地方。Hardcore 由 The Wonderful 制作，
85:17
Winnie Jones, edited by The Amazing, Veer and Pavic. Today's show was Fact Checked by Will Peishel,
Winnie Jones，由 The Amazing、Veer 和 Pavic 编辑。今天的节目由 Will Peishel 进行事实核查，
85:24
Smart Guy, and was engineered by the technical wizard Katie McMurrin.
Smart Guy，并由技术奇才 Katie McMurrin 负责工程。
85:29
Original music for Hardcore, by some truly incredible composers, Elisabeth YouTube,
Hardcore 的原创音乐，由一些真正不可思议的作曲家创作：Elisabeth YouTube、
85:35
Marion Luzano, Sophia Landman, Diane Wong, Pat McCusker, Rowan Nemisto,
Marion Luzano、Sophia Landman、Diane Wong、Pat McCusker、Rowan Nemisto，
85:42
Leah Shaw Damrin, Corey Shrepple, Alissa Moxley, Chris Wood, and Dan Powell.
Leah Shaw Damrin、Corey Shrepple、Alissa Moxley、Chris Wood，以及 Dan Powell。
85:48
Video production, not easy to do with faces like me in Kevin's, but was handled with incredible
视频制作，用像我这样的脸在 Kevin's 里做可不容易，但被处理得不可思议
85:53
skill by Soya Roque, Jake Nickel, and Chris Shot. You can watch this whole episode on YouTube at
skill 由 Soya Roque、Jake Nickel 和 Chris Shot 制作。你可以在 YouTube 上观看整集，网址是
86:00
youtube.com slash hard for and some very special things to everyone who's helped to make this show
youtube.com 斜杠 hard for，还要给这些年来所有帮助制作这档节目的人一些非常特别的东西
86:09
over the years. Sam Dolnick, Rachel Cohn, Kaitlyn Love, Davis Land, Paula Schumann,
Sam Dolnick、Rachel Cohn、Kaitlyn Love、Davis Land、Paula Schumann、
86:16
Jen Koyot, Chris Wood, Alissa Moxley, Daniel Ramirez, Ryan Manning, Pat Gunther, Rachel Dry,
Jen Koyot、Chris Wood、Alissa Moxley、Daniel Ramirez、Ryan Manning、Pat Gunther、Rachel Dry、
86:25
Matt Collette, Emily Lang, Sean Wu, The Rissa Anderson, Nico Gologli, Mahima Shablani,
Matt Collette、Emily Lang、Sean Wu、The Rissa Anderson、Nico Gologli、Mahima Shablani、
86:34
Maria Obdlkov, Anna Alvarado, Puywing Tam, Brooke Mentors, Julia Simon, Kate LaPresti,
Maria Obdlkov、Anna Alvarado、Puywing Tam、Brooke Mentors、Julia Simon、Kate LaPresti、
86:43
Elizabeth Davis-Moror, and Dahlia Hadad. We are so grateful to everything you did for our show.
Elizabeth Davis-Moror 和 Dahlia Hadad。我们非常感激你们为我们的节目所做的一切。
86:51
Now let's go steal some office supplies. I'm looking at the staplers. We don't have one of those in
现在我们去偷点办公用品吧。我正在看订书机。我们这儿没有那种...
86:55
the new office yet.
the new office yet.